Proposal: Remove resilient trait for bats

IB · Post by IB » January 5th, 2008, 3:57 am

Doc Paterson wrote:
IB wrote:I'd like cheaper ghouls and weaker bats.
Do you want fries with that?

Supersize me.

greywolfexcel · Post by **greywolfexcel** » January 5th, 2008, 5:26 pm

Seeing as how bats cost 13 gold (more than a grunt and 1 less than a spearman!), I think they need all the help from traits they can get.

Weeksy · Post by **Weeksy** » January 5th, 2008, 9:04 pm

Meh. The real problem with bats having traits and 60% is that they are better than they once were, enough that they actually have combat use, and people are not used to this. Change is a scary thing, I say that we wait until 1.3.15 or so, when people have been using the bats for a while, before deciding on their balance.

Post by **Velensk** » January 5th, 2008, 10:48 pm

Weeksy wrote:Meh. The real problem with bats having traits and 60% is that they are better than they once were, enough that they actually have combat use, and people are not used to this. Change is a scary thing, I say that we wait until 1.3.15 or so, when people have been using the bats for a while, before deciding on their balance.

There is some merit in these words.

Grand Marshal Aditya · January 6th, 2008, 5:32 am

greywolfexcel wrote:Seeing as how bats cost 13 gold (more than a grunt and 1 less than a spearman!), I think they need all the help from traits they can get.

First of all, they are harder to kill due to their sheer movement and their drain.

Second of all, they are massive village grabbers and they can get a unit that is damaged easily. (I always keep a few bats nearby so that any wounded enemy units can be killed off even if they try to run.)

Third, I agree that the resilient should be removed...they do not need it and it makes them far too powerful...

Radament · Post by **Radament** » January 6th, 2008, 11:19 am

Weeksy wrote:Meh. The real problem with bats having traits and 60% is that they are better than they once were, enough that they actually have combat use, and people are not used to this. Change is a scary thing, I say that we wait until 1.3.15 or so, when people have been using the bats for a while, before deciding on their balance.

Change is also subject to change

I didn't blindly yell out pointing that bats are overpowered, but so far no one has really made any comment on the reasons why I think resilient could be removed.

grrr · Post by **grrr** » January 6th, 2008, 3:53 pm

Well, you hit the nail on the head - resilient gives a unit the possibility to survive an additional hit in most situations, sometimes even 2. But that's the very definition of that trait ... However, where others get a 4 to 5 or 5 to 6 hits-before-death upgrade, the bat gets a significantly larger gain from it (relatively spoken). Perhaps that's the perceived problem? Then I am surprised no one brought up gobs yet =) They too are lvl0 and exploit the traits system slightly.

Post by **Velensk** » January 6th, 2008, 5:16 pm

Regaurdless of if the resiliant trait is removed (by the way I fail to see how 4 extra HP would allow it to survive more than one extra attack) I think it might be a good idea to make bats slightly less easy to lvl, now that they get intelegent.

Martinus · Post by **Martinus** » January 6th, 2008, 6:08 pm

A intelligent bat can level up after one kill on 70% xp settings. A bat without intelligent can level up after one kill and 2 fights. And it's not hard to survive 2 fights with 60% defense on any terrain.

Personally I think that 60% defense and traits is a bit too much. Either one way or another.

Radament · Post by **Radament** » January 6th, 2008, 9:34 pm

Velensk wrote:Regaurdless of if the resiliant trait is removed (by the way I fail to see how 4 extra HP would allow it to survive more than one extra attack) I think it might be a good idea to make bats slightly less easy to lvl, now that they get intelegent.

I gave you examples for the implications "resilient" has for Northerners and Dwarves, where I think the balance is tilted slightly in favor for the Undead. It's not about something abstract like just "more than one attack", which could be anything, skirmisher or adept. It's about how other units fare against bats. And my point is, Northerners and Knalgans are definitely more disadvantaged by this trait.

JW · Post by JW » January 6th, 2008, 9:38 pm

Velensk wrote: (by the way I fail to see how 4 extra HP would allow it to survive more than one extra attack)

Not all attacks hit. Surely you've read 1 of the 10,000 luck threads around here.

Post by **Velensk** » January 6th, 2008, 10:15 pm

Fine I'll rephrase that, One more hit.

Although it is true, that some units do less than 4 damage a hit, it does not happen much.

JW · Post by JW » January 6th, 2008, 10:16 pm

Velensk wrote:Fine I'll rephrase that, One more hit.

Although it is true, that some units do less than 4 damage a hit, it does not happen much.

Indeed. Especially since the bat has -20% impact now. Even shamans do 4 damage to them.

Glowing Fish · Post by **Glowing Fish** » January 7th, 2008, 6:05 pm

Weeksy wrote:I have decided that because some units (bats) are more powerful than should be expected, all units should be perfectly equal, and have these stats:

hp:1
mp:2
movetype=drakefly (to help reduce luck's factors, because *no one* likes luck in wesnoth)
attacks: 1-1 melee pierce
150 xp AMLA

This is kind of a Straw Man attack.
Not that you are wrong, but the original poster was proposing something fairly specific and limited, not giving a blanket statement.