Best strategy in Wesnoth: A good defense?
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Although i play MP Games for a while now and consider myself as an at least average player, i have absolutely no experience in developing discussions. So here is my first try of giving a contribution (so don't be too angry if i'm saying something stupid):
What about reducing the view points of ALL units by 1 (so that the view points are equal to the movement points -1) and introduce a new trait that gives 2 additional view points (so that they have one more view point than movement points) to scout units like wolves, gryphons, gliders, etc.?
This shouldn't be to difficult to implement in the code (have absolutely no knowledge of coding either).
I know this would change a lot, maybe even balancing would have to be done again. But on the other hand it would possibly bring the new depth of tactics in the game, that are some players missing so badly.
Scouts would become a lot more valuable (example: maybe u need a new HI at the front, but without recruiting a second cavalier u dont have enough sight to operate properly with the rest of ur troops).
What about reducing the view points of ALL units by 1 (so that the view points are equal to the movement points -1) and introduce a new trait that gives 2 additional view points (so that they have one more view point than movement points) to scout units like wolves, gryphons, gliders, etc.?
This shouldn't be to difficult to implement in the code (have absolutely no knowledge of coding either).
I know this would change a lot, maybe even balancing would have to be done again. But on the other hand it would possibly bring the new depth of tactics in the game, that are some players missing so badly.
Scouts would become a lot more valuable (example: maybe u need a new HI at the front, but without recruiting a second cavalier u dont have enough sight to operate properly with the rest of ur troops).
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irrevenant
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Just FYI, this sort of expression - "I don't know how to do it, so it must be easy for you to do" - is particularly irritating to developers. I'd avoid it, personally.CragHack wrote:This shouldn't be to difficult to implement in the code (have absolutely no knowledge of coding either).
AFAIK, the Wesnoth engine currently does not distinguish between maximum move and view distance. This idea has been suggested before and I think the Devs are aware of it but it's just really, really low priority.
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Angry Andersen
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As others have pointed out, changing visibility is probably not going to increase offensive play. I find the original suggestion (i.e. ZOCing visibility) very interesting and IMHO it would be great if it could be added as an option for testing. If the effects on gameplay prove to be undesirable, it should be switched off for the stable version (...maybe it could still be switched on in WML for UMCs).
As irrevenant pointed out in a different thread, the game is pretty much feature complete by now. Except for one area which can always be developed further and whose further development would be very beneficial for Wesnoth: the AI.
As I pointed out earlier, I believe that a tendency towards defensive playstyles is generated through campaign play, the reason for this being the huge advantage in mass for AI opponents in campaigns to balance for their weaknesses in tactics and especially strategy.
As irrevenant pointed out in a different thread, the game is pretty much feature complete by now. Except for one area which can always be developed further and whose further development would be very beneficial for Wesnoth: the AI.
As I pointed out earlier, I believe that a tendency towards defensive playstyles is generated through campaign play, the reason for this being the huge advantage in mass for AI opponents in campaigns to balance for their weaknesses in tactics and especially strategy.
To add my 5 cents i agree with sombra here.
Adding more fog would help.
Of course defensive players will keep playing mroe defensive. But the will lose more. You can't defend properly if you don't know where the attack is comming from.
It's a fact that's attacing is more sucesfull in strategy games where less information is given.
And it will not increase luck. It will increase mind games.
Another solution is to make bigger maps.
But i would make a new fog system, once that works with ZOC would be awesome i think, at least worth the try.
Adding more fog would help.
Of course defensive players will keep playing mroe defensive. But the will lose more. You can't defend properly if you don't know where the attack is comming from.
It's a fact that's attacing is more sucesfull in strategy games where less information is given.
And it will not increase luck. It will increase mind games.
Another solution is to make bigger maps.
But i would make a new fog system, once that works with ZOC would be awesome i think, at least worth the try.
Re: Best strategy in Wesnoth: A good defense?
Noy wrote:
After a day of posts this is the one that I think holds the most merit. I really see players of this type as "one trick ponys" as they are called. Initially they might seem "superior," but a balanced playing style, and a bit
of intellectual energy and one can win against them. Actually this is somewhat similar to how Cackfiend played. Notice Cackfiend played an unusually strong offensive style with drakes, massing a major attack going all out into an opponent's base. Cackfiend won most games against people when he played them the first couple of times. After awhile players developed strategies to counter this, and would regularly win against him, as Ereksos did. Ereksos lost 3 times to him when he first played Cackfiend. Then in the tournament he went 3-0, winning two of the games convincingly. Back then people were complaining about the game being tilted towards the drakes and offense. Funny how this thread is now claiming the opposite.
Although this thread is ancient I am just reading it now and must comment on this so that you have facts more than a one sided opinion about my play.
Ereksos and I went 5-1 before the tournament and 0-3 in the tournament.
In the tournament, the first game he definitely won convincingly, no argument.
The other two games were extremely close and honestly were decided by luck and not by strategy. The Drake vs Loyalist match on Charge and the Orcs vs Undead on Den of Onis easily could have went to either player, but key battles went one way or the other to decide the outcome. This is also one of the main reasons I took an extended break from wesnoth... also been waiting on 1.3 to finalize.
I would also like to say that no one has bested me because they played me more and more and learned my "tricks". I would also say that ereksos is a better overall player than me, especially since I am primarily a drake player, but him out skilling/strategizing me is not why he beat me in those two games in the tournament.
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan
I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
Wesnoth Strategy Guide for competitive 1v1 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54236
I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
Wesnoth Strategy Guide for competitive 1v1 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54236
Noy closed my zoc line of sight thread, i don't get it.....i post it
he says no meta threads.
i'm confused.
If he even remotly says that the topic i wanted to open is discussed here it's absurd, this is NOT a thread about the zoc line of sight, just one were it poped up. I just wanted to make a whole new thread for this feature specifically.
If the problem is another, i just don't get it.
he says no meta threads.
i'm confused.
If he even remotly says that the topic i wanted to open is discussed here it's absurd, this is NOT a thread about the zoc line of sight, just one were it poped up. I just wanted to make a whole new thread for this feature specifically.
If the problem is another, i just don't get it.
The problem stated in this thread is that some claim that there is a propensity for defensive play in Wesnoth. Some suggested that ZOC'ing line of sight is a probable solution. As problem and solution are being discussed here in the same thread, there is no reason to create a thread about a solution to a problem discussed in another thread. Whew.
Take a breath.
As I mixed here two different topics...my impression that Wesnoth gives advantage to cautious + defensive play and the suggestion to ZOC the visible zone ... If waterd103 finds other benefits for this feature why not discuss it seperately? Its not that right now every day 20 threads pop up.
Perhaps he thinks that it would be just more interessting and he likes surprises...or gives better benefits for units to hide... or simply feels its more realistic that you try to catch spies in your lands...
Perhaps he thinks that it would be just more interessting and he likes surprises...or gives better benefits for units to hide... or simply feels its more realistic that you try to catch spies in your lands...
here is some brainstorming from me on the subject:
I know its in your list of "items not to implement", but wouldn't long range units, units capable of attacking at distance, like catapults/artillery units, be essential to de-bunkering units? The damage of a long range attack needn't be much, it can be small but the toll will still force units to retreat to seek healing eventually, which can de-bunk defenses.
Defensive positions that are unbreakable occurred also in WWI. The invention of the machine gun was not countered in WWI until WWII with the event of armored units. Armored units provided mobility [blitzing] and resistance which re-vitalized attackers.
In Wesnoth, such an effect could be mimicked if there were more concentrated units available, perhaps more expensive units [with costs far greater than their worth but in essence you get a unit with concentrated firepower]. If you make these units say 200% more expensive but only 150% more powerful, and then also limit their quantity sharply [say linked to number of villages you own, or as a percentage of overall force] then you get smaller number of stronger units which can be pitted against lower-ranking units; which will create focussed-areas where one player has more concentrated FP than P2.
other ideas could be to resolve it with abilities that would also allow breakthroughs, some ideas include:
1. multi-attack: attack multiple [all] adjacent hexes, not just one hex, when attacking.
2. blitz: if a unit kills an enemy unit, allow it to move/attack again its full movement.
3. nimble: after a unit attacks, allow it to continue its move [but it can only attack once and must stop if it enters another ZOC space]
4. breakthrough: this ability would allow a unit to move one more space once it enters an enemy ZOC before it attacks but not after, so a unit which would normally stop when it enters a ZOC can move one more space [deeper into the enemy ZOC] before stopping again.
5. [more] teleportation or fly-over enemie's abilities
6. [more] invisibility abilities
7. push-back ability: when you attack an enemy and do more damage, the enemy unit automatically moves back one hex [ideally hold turn up to allow player to select which hex - but this creates usability issues]
8. corosion/diseas : attack affects the "hex" like poison, so unit must move out of hex or be affected by poisionus gas/plauge etc. would disapate if no enemies aare in hex anymore at end of your turn and would have to be limited to being used on hex's with enemies in them [so you can put gas down in emptey spaces]
alternatively, create counter's for specific defense strategies individually, so if the dwarves use guardians too frequently, make sure that this unit has a weakness vs. some other unit.
another alternative is to have village healing and income slowly reduce over time... this will eventually force players to engage as resources are depleted.
another alternative: show units but not what type they are [units with "?" over them] until you are in closer proximity. Or, simply start hiding some unit data, like do not show HPs of enemy units [you still see damage but do not know resulting HP level] - units which are 'red' might still need to show up red so as to not make the game play alter too dramatically - or just show colors but not exact HP levels, traits can also be hidden, and even XP and level of unit - this would make it possible to position higher level/stronger units in smaller areas, or alternatively, to make "bluffs" with weaker units and concentrate stronger units elsewhere.
maybe some of these ideas will spurt something...
I know its in your list of "items not to implement", but wouldn't long range units, units capable of attacking at distance, like catapults/artillery units, be essential to de-bunkering units? The damage of a long range attack needn't be much, it can be small but the toll will still force units to retreat to seek healing eventually, which can de-bunk defenses.
Defensive positions that are unbreakable occurred also in WWI. The invention of the machine gun was not countered in WWI until WWII with the event of armored units. Armored units provided mobility [blitzing] and resistance which re-vitalized attackers.
In Wesnoth, such an effect could be mimicked if there were more concentrated units available, perhaps more expensive units [with costs far greater than their worth but in essence you get a unit with concentrated firepower]. If you make these units say 200% more expensive but only 150% more powerful, and then also limit their quantity sharply [say linked to number of villages you own, or as a percentage of overall force] then you get smaller number of stronger units which can be pitted against lower-ranking units; which will create focussed-areas where one player has more concentrated FP than P2.
other ideas could be to resolve it with abilities that would also allow breakthroughs, some ideas include:
1. multi-attack: attack multiple [all] adjacent hexes, not just one hex, when attacking.
2. blitz: if a unit kills an enemy unit, allow it to move/attack again its full movement.
3. nimble: after a unit attacks, allow it to continue its move [but it can only attack once and must stop if it enters another ZOC space]
4. breakthrough: this ability would allow a unit to move one more space once it enters an enemy ZOC before it attacks but not after, so a unit which would normally stop when it enters a ZOC can move one more space [deeper into the enemy ZOC] before stopping again.
5. [more] teleportation or fly-over enemie's abilities
6. [more] invisibility abilities
7. push-back ability: when you attack an enemy and do more damage, the enemy unit automatically moves back one hex [ideally hold turn up to allow player to select which hex - but this creates usability issues]
8. corosion/diseas : attack affects the "hex" like poison, so unit must move out of hex or be affected by poisionus gas/plauge etc. would disapate if no enemies aare in hex anymore at end of your turn and would have to be limited to being used on hex's with enemies in them [so you can put gas down in emptey spaces]
alternatively, create counter's for specific defense strategies individually, so if the dwarves use guardians too frequently, make sure that this unit has a weakness vs. some other unit.
another alternative is to have village healing and income slowly reduce over time... this will eventually force players to engage as resources are depleted.
another alternative: show units but not what type they are [units with "?" over them] until you are in closer proximity. Or, simply start hiding some unit data, like do not show HPs of enemy units [you still see damage but do not know resulting HP level] - units which are 'red' might still need to show up red so as to not make the game play alter too dramatically - or just show colors but not exact HP levels, traits can also be hidden, and even XP and level of unit - this would make it possible to position higher level/stronger units in smaller areas, or alternatively, to make "bluffs" with weaker units and concentrate stronger units elsewhere.
maybe some of these ideas will spurt something...
There is already a way to break forts no faction is without a way to break through a fortified line of enemies. ToD is a huge factor it means that most of the opposites of the allinment spectrum have a offencive plan based just around that there is a period wherer they can do large amounts of damage and their enemy can't.
Drakes play diffrently from the rest as they are essentialy a race of flying cavalry thus just getting enough infantry to attack them at the right time of day and they either must retreat or die.
Magic is your artilery, it makes defence irrelevent it also tends to be slapped on high damage units with an allinment so that if you just plan to hold a line and they have enough of these and they are properly supported your line will crumble.
Posion forces your enemy to either be dieing slowly or retreat neither is an appealing option.
Other specials or realy anything that lets you apply a large amount of damage to a area can break your enemy before he can retalaiate effectivly or at a time where he can't retaliate effectivly. Then it just comes down to monuvering so that you can apply this force or failing that grab your enemies villages.
Drakes play diffrently from the rest as they are essentialy a race of flying cavalry thus just getting enough infantry to attack them at the right time of day and they either must retreat or die.
Magic is your artilery, it makes defence irrelevent it also tends to be slapped on high damage units with an allinment so that if you just plan to hold a line and they have enough of these and they are properly supported your line will crumble.
Posion forces your enemy to either be dieing slowly or retreat neither is an appealing option.
Other specials or realy anything that lets you apply a large amount of damage to a area can break your enemy before he can retalaiate effectivly or at a time where he can't retaliate effectivly. Then it just comes down to monuvering so that you can apply this force or failing that grab your enemies villages.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."