Extended Era revived - version 36

Post by **Soliton** » November 26th, 2007, 9:35 am

Mabuse wrote:so i assumed i did everything wrong in the past weeks i tried following setup:
Code: Select all
[side]
	side=6
       team_name=Test
      canrecruit=1
      controller=ai
	allow_player=no
      income=180
      village_gold=0
      gold=1000
	recruit="Chaos Flesh Hound,Sidhe Spirit Ancestor,XE,Lesser Mutation"
type="Necromancer"
	[ai]
	recruitment_ignore_bad_movement=yes 
	recruitment_ignore_bad_combat=yes
	recruitment_pattern=mutant,spirit,frenzy,scout
	aggression=1.0
	ai_algorithm=default
	village_value=0.0
	[/ai]
interesting here is again just he recruitmentsetup and the pattern.
what can i say, if i am lucky i get in 10 TURNS 4 flesh hounds and 1 mutant, if not i get maybe on turn 9 a mutant. but sidhe or even chocobones (XE) - not at all

What's 'XE' supposed to be? There is no unit with that id in EE.
If you want Chocobones you need to specify them..
The ai analyzes the recruits it has available and may decide against certain choices because of that. You can run wesnoth with --log-info="ai" to some more detailed output regarding its choices.

PS: Even though the current setup works I agree with hagabaka that it'd be better to use the established usage categories. It might very well be a good idea to establish more generic usages though, but ideally that should then be applied more widely than two unit trees.

Mabuse · Post by **Mabuse** » November 26th, 2007, 11:27 am

Soliton wrote: What's 'XE' supposed to be? There is no unit with that id in EE.
If you want Chocobones you need to specify them..
The ai analyzes the recruits it has available and may decide against certain choices because of that. You can run wesnoth with --log-info="ai" to some more detailed output regarding its choices.

omg lol - right - after taking another look its XE Chocobone

(i just noticed it as i copied an except from the unit-file in this forum right now, becasue in normal txt it just shows the text in one line

)

hehe, then lets try this setup again ....

Mabuse · Post by **Mabuse** » November 26th, 2007, 11:55 am

ok chocobones trained now

but still no Sidhe Spirit Ancestor - did i make a Mistake here or why isnt it trained -

recruit="Sidhe Spirit Ancestor"
recruitment_pattern=spirit

thats what i use -

Post by **Noyga** » November 26th, 2007, 2:13 pm

Soliton wrote:PS: Even though the current setup works I agree with hagabaka that it'd be better to use the established usage categories. It might very well be a good idea to establish more generic usages though, but ideally that should then be applied more widely than two unit trees.

The thing is outside of "scout" and "healer" that have a special handling by the AI, usage is only used for AI recruiting and nothing else.
You will also notice that in general, "mixed fighter" aren't mixed fighters. Maybe it would be better to change to usage to "mage" for those units (since only mages tend to have this).
The AI comparison algorithm tend to like resistance a little too much, so sometimes it's better to split some unit in a separate category, else it will tend to overrecruit units that have good resistances like the spirit and almost never recruit units like mutations...
So in the case of sidhe spirit and chaos mutation i think it is was necessary to put them in a separate category than "fighter".

Mabuse · Post by **Mabuse** » November 26th, 2007, 3:31 pm

mages are usually archers (== units with better ranged than melee value), at least all mages i know like dark elf mage, demonologist etc

mixed fighters are for example demons and dark elve clerics, units that have fair melee adn range (which is usually not the case with mages)

that just a s a sidenote, i think "mixed fighter" hit the point

(and that its more important (for general categories) what the preferred damage is the unit deals - (melee, ranged or both) instead if the damage the unit may deal is "magical" - so useage "mage" really dont fit)

of course there are non-magical mixed fighters

Post by **Noyga** » November 26th, 2007, 6:14 pm

Humans:
units/humans/Mage.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/humans/Mage_Red.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/humans/Mage_Silver.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/humans/Mage_Arch.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/humans/Mage_Great.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/humans/Mage_White.cfg: usage=healer
units/humans/Mage_of_Light.cfg: usage=fighter

units/undead/Necro_Dark_Adept.cfg: usage=archer
units/undead/Necro_Dark_Sorcerer.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/undead/Necromancer.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/undead/Necro_Lich.cfg: usage=fighter

units/undead/Necro_Ancient_Lich.cfg: usage=mixed fighter

Mermen:
units/merfolk/Initiate.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/merfolk/Enchantress.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/merfolk/Siren.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/merfolk/Priestess.cfg: usage=healer
units/merfolk/Diviner.cfg: usage=healer

Saurian:
units/saurians/Augur.cfg: usage=healer
units/saurians/Oracle.cfg: usage=archer
units/saurians/Soothsayer.cfg: usage=healer

Elves:
units/elves/Shaman.cfg: usage=healer
units/elves/Sorceress.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/elves/Enchantress.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/elves/Sylph.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/elves/Druid.cfg: usage=healer
units/elves/Shyde.cfg: usage=healer

Post by **Aethaeryn** » November 26th, 2007, 10:06 pm

Grand Marshal Aditya wrote:Just something I wanted to suggest:

* How about an Age of Heroes-type addition to EE, allowing for more level two recruitment and level three leaders?

* Furthermore, there are some campaigns that use similar units from EE, so how about putting them together as an all-inclusive package, giving EE multiplayer campaigns, single player campaigns with all that is already there?

* Maybe some special map items for the editor> I don't know how viable it is...

EE is already big enough of a download, though AoH would be the smallest of your three suggestions.

Post by **Noyga** » November 28th, 2007, 10:05 pm

I (and Mythological) have done small updates => x0.31.0-pre24 is out...

Btw for the Windsong i'm still unsure they will stay because there is really a lot to fix for them:
- The need more frames (at least one standing frame for every unit would be a good start)
- A lot of animation need to be fixed
- The balance need to be rethinked
I'm currently lacking time to develop the EE and i'm not very motived to work on them but Myth can still save them if he wants to.
For the description, i have a file with Temuchin's descriptions on my desktop. I'll probably update them if i find the motivation to work again on the Windsong.

JW · Post by JW » November 29th, 2007, 7:49 am

Noyga wrote:I (and Mythological) have done small updates => x0.31.0-pre24 is out...

Btw for the Windsong i'm still unsure they will stay because there is really a lot to fix for them:
- The need more frames (at least one standing frame for every unit would be a good start)
- A lot of animation need to be fixed
- The balance need to be rethinked
I'm currently lacking time to develop the EE and i'm not very motived to work on them but Myth can still save them if he wants to.
For the description, i have a file with Temuchin's descriptions on my desktop. I'll probably update them if i find the motivation to work again on the Windsong.

They might actually fit well in the Era of Myths, and I've taken quite a liking to the guys. Just a thought.

I could easily include them in my next EoM release, which is coming ASAP.

Mabuse · Post by **Mabuse** » November 29th, 2007, 6:04 pm

Noyga wrote:Humans:
units/humans/Mage.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/humans/Mage_Red.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/humans/Mage_Silver.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/humans/Mage_Arch.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/humans/Mage_Great.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/humans/Mage_White.cfg: usage=healer
units/humans/Mage_of_Light.cfg: usage=fighter

units/undead/Necro_Dark_Adept.cfg: usage=archer
units/undead/Necro_Dark_Sorcerer.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/undead/Necromancer.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/undead/Necro_Lich.cfg: usage=fighter
units/undead/Necro_Ancient_Lich.cfg: usage=mixed fighter

Mermen:
units/merfolk/Initiate.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/merfolk/Enchantress.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/merfolk/Siren.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/merfolk/Priestess.cfg: usage=healer
units/merfolk/Diviner.cfg: usage=healer

Saurian:
units/saurians/Augur.cfg: usage=healer
units/saurians/Oracle.cfg: usage=archer
units/saurians/Soothsayer.cfg: usage=healer

Elves:
units/elves/Shaman.cfg: usage=healer
units/elves/Sorceress.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/elves/Enchantress.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/elves/Sylph.cfg: usage=mixed fighter
units/elves/Druid.cfg: usage=healer
units/elves/Shyde.cfg: usage=healer

hehe, btw though i knew that LICH is Fighter, i dint know that dark-adept-line changes useage with lvl2 - which makes no real sense

it makes also no sense that a human_mage is for example a mixed fighter, when a loyalist bowman is an archer

the human bowman has more melee and less rnage still its an archer and mage which has less melee and more ranged values is a mixed fighter lol

on the other hand that mage is mixed fighter (for loyalists now) and bowman is archer may be due to allow then to be trained independently from each other - in this case i admit it could be even better to make a class named "mage" instead which describes a ranged fighter which hits with magical hit-propability -

but as long it doesent really matter how the name of the useage really is its also just "cosmetic"

Mabuse · Post by **Mabuse** » November 29th, 2007, 9:52 pm

but another thing - lets talk about balance:

there may be also other things, but obviously the raindancer is way to cheap -

its has 32 HP, 5-3 melee, 6-3 (magical) range, 20% resistent vs cold, 20 resistant vs holy, good defenses

and cost 22 Gold

the wizrad from dark elves has 26HP, NO melee, 8 - 3 (magical range), 10% resist cold, 10% resist holy, also good defnses (though no 70% like the raindancer)

and cost 21 Gold

thats just an example, there are also other units that cost 20-22 that are overall not as good as raindancer - some have their weaknesses, but raindancer is overall good, no weakness, good melee and range and very cheap (get a strong and robust one and you kow what i mean - then it has 6-3/6-3 with 39 HP for 22 bucks)

some player use if they take sidhe on some maps JUST raindancer, becasue they are overall very good and have no real weakness

it would recommend to make rindancer somewhat more expensive

+2 for example gold would be a good thing

Post by **Aethaeryn** » November 29th, 2007, 10:03 pm

Well, first of all, it's a difference of 6 potential damage points. That can make a difference, especially when there's that frustrating unit that has 1 HP left. Also, you're checking an old version of EE for the old (1.2.x) version of Wesnoth (yes, at this point that line is only updated for critical bugfixes, in my (worthless) opinion everyone should be playing devel). In addition, spam of any unit is easily counterable and from experience playing default maps with default settings the raindancers are actually too expensive. If anything, the other cost should be reduced. Factions are also presumably balanced faction vs faction, not unit vs unit, and the basic warrior unit of the Sidhe sucks. The raindancer unit is basically the only reason people play Sidhe.

On the other hand, in RPGs raindancer is the best unit ever.

Post by **Noyga** » November 29th, 2007, 10:16 pm

Mabuse wrote:it makes also no sense that a human_mage is for example a mixed fighter, when a loyalist bowman is an archer

the human bowman has more melee and less rnage still its an archer and mage which has less melee and more ranged values is a mixed fighter lol

on the other hand that mage is mixed fighter (for loyalists now) and bowman is archer may be due to allow then to be trained independently from each other - in this case i admit it could be even better to make a class named "mage" instead which describes a ranged fighter which hits with magical hit-propability -

but as long it doesent really matter how the name of the useage really is its also just "cosmetic"

Yeah some of the mainline usage= are nonsense, thank to you i did this check and this became obvious. The devs are now aware of this and we are going to fix it.
Btw is not a top priority, usage= is only a parameter for the recruitement of the AI, nothing else.

About the 1.2.x version of EE it is way outdated, yeah.

Post by **Noyga** » November 29th, 2007, 10:20 pm

JW wrote:They might actually fit well in the Era of Myths, and I've taken quite a liking to the guys. Just a thought.

I could easily include them in my next EoM release, which is coming ASAP.

It sounds like a very good idea for me to transfer them to the EoM.
I'll update the descriptions and send you the .cfg then

Mabuse · Post by **Mabuse** » November 30th, 2007, 9:05 am

Aethaeryn wrote:Well, first of all, it's a difference of 6 potential damage points. That can make a difference

not really. ok, 8-3 has higher damage potencial, but also NO melee attack. (and less HP - lol) so its very vulnerable to melee fighter that gets him. sure 8 - 3 is cool (specially vs drakes) so its ok to pay for it -

but against raindancer on other hand a melee unit risk to get wounded and finished next turn. raindancer on a good hex has no weakness - thats the real problem - and so i would say a few bucks more would be ok.

Aethaeryn wrote: Also, you're checking an old version of EE for the old (1.2.x) version of Wesnoth (yes, at this point that line is only updated for critical bugfixes, in my (worthless) opinion everyone should be playing devel).

yes, i will look for development version, the problem is i dont really know which one i shall play - i give 1.3.11 a try ?

Aethaeryn wrote: In addition, spam of any unit is easily counterable and from experience playing default maps with default settings the raindancers are actually too expensive. If anything, the other cost should be reduced.

raindancer is not even the most expensive unit in the game, why should they be too expensive ? they are too cheap - thats it.

Aethaeryn wrote: Factions are also presumably balanced faction vs faction, not unit vs unit, and the basic warrior unit of the Sidhe sucks. The raindancer unit is basically the only reason people play Sidhe.

yeah, i heard that argument. does not really fit here if you ask me.

what sense make a faction at all that has just "[censored] units" whcih are to expensive (?) but ONE unit that can do all and is too cheap ?

makes really no sense making sidhe warrior useless (thats what you said) and another unit too strong (for their cost), and then say faction vs faction are balanced - of course nobody uses "[censored]"-units - so there goes your balance

Aethaeryn wrote: On the other hand, in RPGs raindancer is the best unit ever.

dont know. atm i consider dwarfen runessmith as very good.

though its 1.2.7/8 i am speaking of.

said that i installed 1.3.11 at this moment- lets see

and download some stuff/play a bit etc.

edit:
but its down atm - guess i will return to 1.2.7/8
(and then try to convert a map into 1.3.11 format)