experience for using units the way they were intended

[wobbegong]

Also agreeing with Dave & Turin.

It's called The _Battle_ for Wesnoth (not 'race' or 'exploration' or 'hospital'!) XP for surviving or winning combat makes sense, and is simple and direct.

It is pretty easy anyway to get White Mages - Mages are one of the best units available for finishing units off so tend to go up levels without too much work... Harder to get Druids from Shaman, but I find the 'slow' attack is so useful that they tend to pick up steady XP and anyway the increase in power from Shaman to Druid is possibly the biggest in the game and so well worth the effort (Shaman are a pretty weak unit, but by be able to heal at 1st level they strengthen the whole army, and Druids & Shydes are _really_ good units - not awesome by themselves but brilliant in support and pretty capable in combat too).

Scouts don't actually need to go up levels - it's nice (and I think the idea of units that can never improve at all a bit against the style of the game personally), and they can be occasionally useful in a stand-up fight (but even Outriders are best used to scout and occasional finish or breifly pin a lone unit) , but they need to run and take villages and provide LoS... Again they should actually (like Mages) go up fairly easily (with loses if you try to fight straight on with them) because with their move they can often sweep in to make a final hit on a unit that has been badly hurt but is probinh hard to finish off... It's nice that there are 3 levels for the Elven scouts, but not really essential (I don't think a 3rd Griffin level is essential either - it's a scout, it's supposed to scout - by 2nd level it can at least fight off other scouts a bit... If you want to do all your fighting with scouts you'd better have a lot of gold handy!).

Cheers,

Tim.

[neil]

I don't see how the "It makes their upgrading inevitable" thing doesn't apply here.

If you make scouts get xp from scouting and healers from healing, then all you have to do is recall those units scenario after scenario, and soon enough, they'll advance.

And the important thing is that this isn't true for fighting XP, since the unit has a chance of dying whenever you send it into battle.
(at least this is the logic I picked up on while reading the original thread on this topic, which BTW IMO should be linked to in the FPI)

Healers also have a chance of dying since the AI will run around your defending units and attack them if it can. So, sending them in to heal is not keeping them safe. Scouts also risk themselves if they are running ahead to capture forts, they may be ambushed or come dangerously close to being attacked.

[neil]

the most important thing, IMHO, is that there is only one kind of XP, and it can only be gotten by fighting. Nice, simple rules.

As for people who are saying the reasoning against this idea is actually for it... what you want is a game completely different from wesnoth.

there are lots of rules in wesnoth intended to make the gameplay fun, at the cost of simplicity. For example, if it weren't for the added magic resistance types and min. 60% to hit of magical attacks, you might never buy mages. Having really strong mages would make them like archers. So instead, the game became more complicated so that the gameplay would benefit: people use mages. Conversely, you don't only buy mages because their defence is terrible, etc. etc.

The same kind of reasoning works here. A lot of ideas are going to make the game more complicated. The point is to find ones that improve the gameplay. The reason I like the idea of XP for healing and capturing cities is that it doesn't affect the existing gameplay too much (these units still get XP for fighting) but you no longer need to run around your fighting units whenever there is a death blow waiting.

But honestly, if so many people don't feel it, then that's fine. The explanation at the FSI did not go over this reasoning, and if people really want to toss idea then maybe we should at least save the main points of this discussion.

Cheers,

Neil

[Dave]

All upgrading is inevitable if you play long enough, since statistically, some units will survive and some of those will survive long enough to upgrade. Kind of like Le Chatelier's principle: each particle has some chance of crossing a barrier, so some particles will inevitably do it. Which means that sooner or later all units will inevitably advance.

Sure, but with experience being gained from healing, upgrading for that unit becomes inevitable. You know your healer will advance. You just have to rotate units back to be healed by them. There is very little skill or risk involved.

David

[Dacyn]

there are lots of rules in wesnoth intended to make the gameplay fun, at the cost of simplicity. For example, if it weren't for the added magic resistance types and min. 60% to hit of magical attacks, you might never buy mages. Having really strong mages would make them like archers. So instead, the game became more complicated so that the gameplay would benefit: people use mages. Conversely, you don't only buy mages because their defence is terrible, etc. etc.

true; KISS is a software development principle.
Which is why the "most important" thing is that it would be bad for gameplay.

[neil]

All upgrading is inevitable if you play long enough, since statistically, some units will survive and some of those will survive long enough to upgrade. Kind of like Le Chatelier's principle: each particle has some chance of crossing a barrier, so some particles will inevitably do it. Which means that sooner or later all units will inevitably advance.

Sure, but with experience being gained from healing, upgrading for that unit becomes inevitable. You know your healer will advance. You just have to rotate units back to be healed by them. There is very little skill or risk involved.

David

I guess it will come down to a feeling. I feel:
- rotating units with healers very far back is a lot of work, and doesn't work well. Usually, you can find a town to run back to instead -- it will cost less upkeep plus you will get the town defensive bonus.
- your healers are always at risk just for being on the map and near the battle.

But, maybe you don't feel this way.

What you're saying here is that you think it will lead to bad gameplay: healers being far from battle and players laboriously rotating units back to them. I think it will lead to good gameplay: healers right behind your units, just not attacking but rather letting the other fighting units do their thing.

Cheers,

Neil

[Elvish_Pillager]

Fighters level by doing what they do. You don't have to try. Healers don't. You have to take effort to level a healer. It's very different. I don't think it should be changed.

Besides, there is no healer that isn't useful in fights. Shamans slow enemies by attacking and White Mages are almost the equal of Red Mages, even more so against the undead. And Paladins' healing is almost an afterthought.

[SteelP]

I really like your idea, but perhaps it doesn't fit too well in Wesnoth. Anyway I'm trying to make a mod/branch/newGameBasedOnTheSameEngine and this idea is rather interesting.
In fact I think that giving extremely low amounts of xp for healing, such as 1xp for 30 hp healed, could be interesting even for Wesnoth. But, as all those people said before me, Wesnoth is about fighting, and when the units advance not only gain better abilities, they also get better in combat, so combat is the way to level up.

Hey, levelling up healers by fighting is fun! (and risky, of course)