Best strategy in Wesnoth: A good defense?

[Noy]

I recall one game that started as a 3p game, one player got killed early, and me and one other (both dwarf) built guardsman walls all the way across the map.

The game ended in OOS (darn!) His client said his leader (a rogue) reached the third keep, which would have guaranteed his victory, and my client said the path was blocked with my units.


There was another 2v2 game in which one player from each side left, with dwarf up against dwarf and drake against undead. The dwarves generally built guardsmen walls and sent a few units over to help in the other fight.
I finally got victory in that one when I managed to bust through what was only a four-hex wide hole in the guardsman wall and push six drake units through it by day.

Both of those games came very close to stalemate by guardsman wall. A defense can be almost impenetrable.

Two Dwarves go all guardsman and its a surpise? OMG! We need to correct that balance immediately!

[bert1]

The Defence strategy can be beaten regularly by more experienced players, its just really frustrating and boring to do so. And its not just me who has said this about your play. I mean lets be honest here, Nordmann CHOSES dwarves regularly. Maybe the problem is not in the game but in the strategy you play.

This sounds to me like a good argument to change the game in some way.

As I understand it, Sombra's point is not that he likes playing defensively, just that he wins more when he does.

If the game incentivises boring play, it is the game at fault, not the player for exploiting that.

What the change should be, I don't know. It might be possible to make maps in which playing very defensively is a bad strategy.

Is Silverhead Crossing an example of such a map?

[Sombra]

Oh there are certainly ways to overcome a strong defense and I said not that I played perfect .

Still my point is that all strategies like feint attacks , gambeling on an all out attack etc are very hard to pull of with the current rules.

IMO Wesnoth favors the cautious defensive player.

[Noy]

This sounds to me like a good argument to change the game in some way.

As I understand it, Sombra's point is not that he likes playing defensively, just that he wins more when he does.

If the game incentivises boring play, it is the game at fault, not the player for exploiting that.

No, see you've ignored the rest of what I said. His style of play works probably because the people he is up against don't know how to beat it. Up against what used to be the top tier of players it is not a winning strategy because there are ways to defeat it. Playing the way I play, I beat most players regularly. Does that mean I should balance the game against my tactics as well? No, and yet you're suggesting that I should. Sombra and Nordmann are particularly good at sitting on top of a mountain and waiting for someone to attack. Actually in my first 2v2 game I noted that both were actually pretty bad at making attacks in general. At one point Nordmann held a substantial advantage, but he preferred to sit on a mountain instead.

So no I don't think its a matter of the game being slighted towards one playing style, particularly when map design has been pushed towards making the game less static for quite some time.

[Sombra]

Silverhead crossing is a good example where the terrain artificially overlays certain restriciton to have allways the best defense Bert.

Still the main reason is the game mechanics IMO

[Noy]

Oh there are certainly ways to overcome a strong defense and I said not that I played perfect .

Still my point is that all strategies like feint attacks , gambeling on an all out attack etc are very hard to pull of with the current rules.

IMO Wesnoth favors the cautious defensive player.

As I've said, I think this is your perspective and certainly evident in your gameplay. Doesn't mean its the "winning way" by any stretch of the imagination. I've already discussed this with several developers and they agree with the assessment.

Why don't you bring some examples here so we can go over it? Maybe then you could learn... if you're at all interested in doing so. Of course it might just be easier to blame the game, then actually looking at yourself and seeing what might be wrong with your play.

[Soliton]

Well there is good example for this problem in this thread. link

Also a stalemate. I would say the game was pretty even until the opponent did some mistakes and the goblins with zero upkeep finally broke the stalemate.

So the problem still exists it might be counterable but it is still boring to overcome.

That game exactly shows that there is no problem. Even with Northerners who have no heavy hitters, no magic I managed to go on the offense eventually and won. I don't see how you can call that game a stalemate anyway, there was a back and forth according to the Tod all the time as I recall. You seem to mislabel even games as stalemates.
You're right though that a level 0 strategy is tedious and long winded but it's the opponent's fault if he doesn't manage to beat it until critical mass is reached. (by being too defensive..) Of course it also needs some careful play to have the level 0 units not just as XP fodder for the opponent..

[Sombra]

Noy, please I can´t remember even one game losing against you...
Perhaps you have a replay at hand?


Against players like Soliton,Pietro and Dragonheart yes.


You particular skill you claim to have ... Somehow up to now I missed it.

I like your work as MP developer and think you guys do a great job in blaancing units. Playing against you is something that I try to avoid because I think you have a nasty attitude problem. But that may be just me.

[Shadow]

As said it were just my two cents.

I play Wesnoth for a long time not competivly though but still a long time.
The game I linked to feeled a bit like dancing back and forth again. On the other side it bought you time to get the Goblins rolling.
Perhaps I misunderstand it.
Before I kill the discussion with this example the problem was that some players seem to be able to turtle with good success. Now the question is how to defuse it a bit.

Most newer Strategy games punish turtlers quite hard with artillery or missing map control that costs them resources.

The last one is given with villages the first one doesn't exists in Wesnoth (perhaps mages and units with poison).

So any other or better suggestion to overcome this.

[Noy]

Noy, please I can´t remember even one game losing against you...
Perhaps you have a replay at hand?


Against players like Soliton,Pietro and Dragonheart yes.


You particular skill you claim to have ... Somehow up to now I missed it.

I like your work as MP developer and think you guys do a great job in blaancing units. Playing against you is something that I try to avoid because I think you have a nasty attitude problem. But that may be just me.

Oh man Sombra... please.

"I can't remember you beating me"

Well yeah, we've played two games total. Wow, I'm sure there is a strong statistical correlation for you being so much better, and me being that much wose than you.Moreover I've already stated here why, which is I had never been confronted by just a pure defense strategy. Guess what I did after? I rewatched the replay several times and went over how to beat it. Did you actually do that? Maybe the reason why you don't see me play is because, umm, you live in a different time zone?

I also watch your games from time to time, just because I like to know how people play, if I can't play myself. Do you do that? Everything you say has a defensive mentality. Even here you said that silverhead crossing is a defensive map. Is that really true?

[joshudson]

I recall one game that started as a 3p game, one player got killed early, and me and one other (both dwarf) built guardsman walls all the way across the map.

The game ended in OOS (darn!) His client said his leader (a rogue) reached the third keep, which would have guaranteed his victory, and my client said the path was blocked with my units.


There was another 2v2 game in which one player from each side left, with dwarf up against dwarf and drake against undead. The dwarves generally built guardsmen walls and sent a few units over to help in the other fight.
I finally got victory in that one when I managed to bust through what was only a four-hex wide hole in the guardsman wall and push six drake units through it by day.

Both of those games came very close to stalemate by guardsman wall. A defense can be almost impenetrable.

Two Dwarves go all guardsman and its a surpise? OMG! We need to correct that balance immediately!

I'm not the one complaining about defense being the best strategy. I rather like it that way.

[Sombra]

Noy I didnt claim to play better than you as I have played to few games against you. I didnt claim neither not to have seen you play. As I have the opportunity I watch games from tier 1 players.



No silverhead crossing makes it difficult to defend due to the landscape. The key word here is restrictions to the best defense.

As it is I give simply my view of the game as I see it. Perhaps a poll would be a good idea or simply watching the replays of the tournament for example?

[Noy]

First you say this:

Noy, please I can´t remember even one game losing against you...
Perhaps you have a replay at hand?

Against players like Soliton,Pietro and Dragonheart yes.

You particular skill you claim to have ... Somehow up to now I missed it.

Then you say this?

Noy I didnt claim to play better than you as I have played to few games against you. I didnt claim neither not to have seen you play.

Sombra, if you're going to make a statement like that, please have the character to back it up after. Don't try to underhandedly assert something, then claim that wasn't your intention at all.

[Shadow]

Could we spare the personal snippets?

(Coming from me hah can I get a e-cookie.)

A user brought an issue up and everyone has a opinion so everything is as usual.
Has anyone to offer a solution or isn't there a problem at all?

[krotop]

Again I would like to see a fog of war where you limit the seen area with you zone of control.

If that's a petition, I'd like to sign it up
I found the possibility to hide troops more interesting and guessing what the other has - and where - a fun part of Strategy.

For the defense strategy question, I'll add my 2 cents myself by saying it's not a better but an easier way to play in my humble opinion. When I play against a good player and try to be a challenge to him, I play defensively because I just have to read his plan which already so hard that I don't spare more energy in thinking "what he thinks that I think" to feint and make a good attack. If I play offensive, it's rather suicide because my strategy is quite easy to read even if my tactics are more or less ok. Most of the time, I begin to lose by the moment I adopt the second attitude.

Still in my opinion, but a winning agressive player has more merit than a defensive one, because he's the one that choses the crucial moves of the game, control it, and takes the risk to have an unlucky turn with catastrophic consequences right after.