Unit Change Ideas

[Noyga]

Moved to the MP forum, since it seems more appropriate...

I disagree. This isn't necessary and doesn't have any justification.
I follow the same logic you should probably add a weakness to the dark adepts to balance is +20% arcane resistance (and 0% other weaknesses).

the justification is that 20% cold resist really screws over an augur counter to this unit. the augur hits with 70% but its damaged is reduced quite a bit because of the mermans cold resist. now if it was vulnerable to fire, a better counter to mermen would be burners instead of augurs in drake vs loyalist matchups. it is necessary because the drake vs loyalist matchup is unbalanced atm and i think this would be a step to making it more balanced.

the same logic doesnt apply to dark adepts at all... there is no opposite to holy/arcane. cold is the opposite of fire though.

Not really, see the HI resistances for example...
For the Naga vs DA or Augur it not such a problem since the Naga usually have a clear mobility advantage in the area where they are usually used.

Knalgan Alliance

Poacher ranged 6-3 or 5-4 from 4-4
makes poachers at night be able to take advantage of drakes -10% piercing resistance. currently a 4-4 poacher is unaffected by drakes piercing

I feel it would make the Poacher too strong compared to the Thunderer...

the poacher still has less hps, no 20% defense to all physical, and still has a horrible melee attack. not to mention its best tile (60% defense on forest) takes 2 mp to move into

again just an idea because i see poachers very much underused and think they need to be changed a little...

The poacher is still valuable because :
- at night it does more damage than the thunderer
- it's the only valuable ranged defender ot the faction in forests and swamp
- it has more strikes, thus is a better unit to finish a almost dead ennemy unit
- it is cheaper ... It already does more damage per price.

If you increase its damage, the problem is the Thunder will start to become useless.

[Wen Yang]

6-3 wouldnt be more damage then thunderers 18-1

So you're suggesting that a 14 gp unit is to have EQUAL offense with a 17 gp unit then?

And that's at dusk/dawn. At night those buggers would do 7-3. MORE than the thunderer's 18-1. They already do 5-4 at night right now. That's already more than what the thunderer does.

[Cackfiend]

6-3 wouldnt be more damage then thunderers 18-1

So you're suggesting that a 14 gp unit is to have EQUAL offense with a 17 gp unit then?

And that's at dusk/dawn. At night those buggers would do 7-3. MORE than the thunderer's 18-1. They already do 5-4 at night right now. That's already more than what the thunderer does.

you do realize theres only a 1 point difference in 7-3 and 5-4 right?
every other factor of the thunderer is better than the poacher... would it be a big deal if they did equal RANGED dmg to a thunderer? (i mean its only 2 less atm anyways). i really think you're pushing the "omg a 3 gold less unit could do as much dmg as a thunderer" a little much

the main point is to make it so 10% or -10% pierce resist is actually factored into damage.

lets compare:

4-4 Poacher does 5-4 at night and 3-4 during the day, regardless if theyre fighting a 10% or -10% piercing creature. It would do 16 dmg max during dusk/dawn, 12 dmg max during the day, and 20 dmg max during the night.

6-3 Poacher does 7-3 at night and 5-3 during the day. If theyre fighting a -10% piercing unit (drakes) they would do 7-3 at dusk/dawn, 8-3 at night, and 5-3 during the day. If theyre fighting a 10% piercing unit (saurians) they would do 5-3 during dawn/dusk, 7-3 during night, and 4-3 during the day.

Thats a difference of:

Vs. Regular Units

2 Dmg more during dawn/dusk
1 Dmg more during night
3 Dmg more during day

Vs. -10% Pierce Units

5 Dmg more during dawn/dusk
4 Dmg more during night
3 Dmg more during day

Vs. 10% Pierce Units

1 Dmg less during dawn/dusk
1 Dmg more during night
No difference during day


pretty interesting eh?

but yes i do understand that a perk about poachers attacking 4 times is good for killing off low hp units... but who wants to give their poachers all the xp?

[Cackfiend]

6-3 would be more damage then thunderers 18-1

if this would be applied, i would stop playling wesnoth

you edited my quote to say "would" instead of "wouldnt" ?

are you being serious or sarcastic here?

a couple point difference in dmg would make you quit wesnoth? lol

[Wen Yang]

*sigh*

Thunderers aren't the only problem. My problem is that with that damage upgrade the poacher suddenly becomes THE most cost-efficient archer around.

Let's do a little comparison with the rest of the archer-types, shall we?

A Poacher's base statistics:

HP: 32 Cost: 14 Moves: 5 Alignment: chaotic XP: 29

attacks

Dagger blade 3-2 melee
bow pierce 4-4 ranged

Resistances
blade 0%
cold 0%
fire 0%
arcane 20%
impact 0%
pierce 0%

Terrain Modifiers
Terrain Movement Defense
Castle 1 60%
Village 1 60%
Deep Water 99 20%
Shallow Water 3 20%
Grassland 1 40%
Forest 2 60%
Hills 2 50%
Mountains 3 60%
Swamp 2 50%
Sand 2 30%
Cave 2 40%
Snow 3 20%
Mushroom Grove 2 50%
Chasm 99 20%

Now for a little comparison:

The Loyalist Bowman:

1 more HP, double the melee power, needs 10 more Exp to advance, 6-3 ranged attack (What you suggested we change the Poacher's to). Identical resistances, but worse defense in forests (Very common terrain, common enough for that 10% to actually make a difference) and swamps (Not as commonly vital, but 20% against 50% is one rather nasty difference). Costs 1 more gold.

The Dwarvish Thunderer:

2 more HP, also got double melee power, 11 more Exp to advance, 18-1 ranged attack. Superior resistances all around, and excellent movetype, but only 4 move and only real good defensive option is the mountain/hills or a village. Cave-type terrain does not show up often enough in MP maps for them to push their advantage there. Also comes with a hefty 17 gold price tag.

The Northener Orcish Archer:

Same HP, same melee, relatively equal move capability and defenses, only 1 xp to next level difference. Actually has WEAKER attack than the poacher at any time of the day, with only redeeming factor being its ability to attack using fire damage type as well. Same price.

The Rebel Elvish Archer:

Lower HP, and significantly more Exp to advance, but has superior offense by 4 points in melee and ranged both. Superior movement abilities and defense too, but of course, they come at a heftier 17 gold price tag. Note however, that a poacher at night can match a non-dextrous Elvish Archer in terms of ranged damage, while costing a good bit less.

I am not including the drakes and undead here mostly because their units are in their own ways somewhat too unique for a direct face-to-face comparison like this.

And in case you are wondering, I find it that 2-5 points of damage, as trivial as it may seem, can actually affect the game much more than one would expect, once some comparison and cost-efficiency comes into play. In case you do not agree that such little amounts of damage matters, try suggesting that the Ghost get just ONE extra HP, and watch the response.

Just my 2 cents.

[Cackfiend]

Just my 2 cents.

i honestly really appreciate the thoughtful comparison, i did a similar thing the first time i tried to get drake gliders changed (i compared them to every other scout unit)


the problem with your comparison is that even without a change, everything u said pretty much stays the same. the poacher is easily the worst archer in the game, and no sane dwarf user would make poachers vs drake (because it doesnt take advantage of the -10% pierce)


adding +2 to a poachers base dmg really isnt a big deal in any matchup except vs drakes (and other pierce vulnerable unit), and thats where they need the most help

[Becephalus]

I make poachers all the time, but Noy hates the poacher, perhaps you guys should become friends

[Wen Yang]

Judging from combat-value alone, the poacher is not that good.

However, they have a strategic value I really appreciate, especially considering the faction they are used in: The Knalgan alliance.

They serve VERY well to hold important forest or Swamp hexes, even moreso if you're fighting against tree-hugging rebels. They take more punishment to kill than the footpad, hit back harder, and comes for the same price tag.

Besides, for their price, the current poacher is already darned good, better than say, his equally priced orcish counterpart unless you happen to be fighting undead. Increase his offense, and his cost-efficiency increases to the point that chances are fair that thunderer will see less use, and possibly affecting the faction vs faction balance.

As for fighting against Drakes, their use is still there, holding strategic forest/swamp hexes, or villages as needed, and also good for attacking at night.

[F8 Binds...]

I have a couple ideas to throw in, but first I must state my cause to the thunderer. It seems it is heavily being undermined here, let me state the bonuses.

-Only at night will the poacher do more damage.
-It does all of it's damage in ONE hit. You see a 18 hp unit, it's a one hit kill for your thunderer. Not as dependable, per say, but you shouldn't be attacking high defense units with it anyways. It makes ranged attackers (such as adepts/other archers) scared to attack you with it.
-Resistances make this unit twice as survivable. On hills and mountains it can be an absolute pain to remove.

If the poacher damage were to be increased, per say, some negative resistances would have to go along with it, as to make it more frail to compensate for the extra damage. I think a very interesting twist would be to go to a two strike archer, though this is just thoughts here. The other thing that the poacher would have to do would to go up in price, violating the theme of outlaws- cheap, chaotic, brute, unclean, though only as effective as their price. Take as you wish.

[Cackfiend]

really guys?

really?

for 2 more base dmg?

[Noy]

I make poachers all the time, but Noy hates the poacher, perhaps you guys should become friends

Untrue, maybe you should play more games with the rest of us J because times change. I often use Poachers to hold forests and swamps . That 60% in forests is VERY useful for defence. Since they serve a useful function within their faction, there is no reason to change them.

And to be perfectly honest I don't think any of them will be implemented. We've already diagnosed what was wrong with spearmen vs Drakes, it was a minor problem that cropped up if drakes had quick intel clashers vs strong Res Spearmen. We did the playtesting after this change when 1.3.2 came out and most devs feel that the problem has been solved.

But none of us agree with your contention that it is so unbalanced that it requires spearmen going up to 15 gold. As a corollary that would also unbalance everything else. Don't agree, bring out the replays.

As for 50% on gliders, the unit has one of the best movements of all units, and has marksmanship (which is very useful for drakes.) I don't see any pressing balancing or gameplay need.

The rest of the concerns have been addressed by others, I think noyga probably has the best answer.

[toni]

if this would be applied, i would stop playling wesnoth

you edited my quote to say "would" instead of "wouldnt" ?

are you being serious or sarcastic here?

a couple point difference in dmg would make you quit wesnoth? lol

ok, i'm not serious in this, but i'm seriously against this change!
look at the description of the units and then post changes, which match to this description

[Roman Loyalist]

I understand so, that all of the above-stated changes touch only for playing for Drakes.
But author did not think, that such changes as

Spearman cost raised to 15 from 14
makes drake vs loyalist a little more balanced (the most unbalanced matchup in the game IMO) without hurting other matchups

&

Orc Grunt cost raised to 13 from 12
well many will disagree but ive seen some abuse with mass grunts lately that has really worked well

will result in problems with other matchup's.

Next:

Poacher ranged 6-3 or 5-4 from 4-4
makes poachers at night be able to take advantage of drakes -10% piercing resistance. currently a 4-4 poacher is unaffected by drakes piercing

but very affected vs horses units (-20%). for the 14$ he have good resistence in forest&hills+low level of expirience. & don't forget what Dwarfs have Thunderer's

About water village's. It's problem map, not faction. Map-developer must foresee possibility of attack of the village from other types of plant (mount, hill, forest...)
finally i would change nothing.

[Noyga]

If i would change the poacher i think i'd rather upgrade his melee rather than his ranged attack (sothething like 4-2 or 3-3 (since the trapper has 4 strikes)) . But then it may be too strong if you compare with the pretty similar in stats orcish archer (at least this would need some testing). I think melee should remain inferior to the Thunderer

[Weeksy]

I have found an arbitrary reason that makes me think that faction X should be completely revamped: I can't make use of all their units when facing faction Y, and I can't understand that not all units are needed in all matchups. I think that factions should be balanced towards any map, thus getting rid of the pressure on the mapmakers to have to make maps that are balanced in all matchups. Thank you for complying with my wishes. I will flame your ideas if you don't do so immediately. Thank You