my 7th map- Chilled Caves

Post by **F8 Binds...** » April 13th, 2007, 1:29 am

This map was based off a idea to solve drake movement, yet be able to use snow terrain by mixing cave terrain. Not overdone so that undead+loyalists are weak, but to make the map interesting and fun to play. Uses basic settings. I'm wanting comments more than ever on this map- the ratio of cave-snow, where the terrain is located, player keep locations, loyal, undead, and drake movement problems are all needing addressed here if they exist. I'm looking for some good opinions on this. Anyways, this is one crazy map-

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Post by **Doc Paterson** » April 13th, 2007, 4:22 pm

I have several comments:

First and foremost, the artistry/creativity of this map is top notch- Excellent job in this regard. It's a very fresh map, and has a lot of identity/distinctiveness.

I don't think that it particularly "solves" drake movement. Remember, afterall, that Drakes do need a mobility-promoting environment to contend with the other factions. That said, the snow patches do a good job of enabling Drake mobility, and while this may not be what you intended, it is well suited for an overall balance.

The most significant issue is that the player one advantage is very very severe; player two can lose 2 and often 3 of their assigned villages, which, as you know, is a huge economic swing, every turn. Try playing both sides- recruiting several gryphons as player one; send them racing for those villages, while you fill in your own villages (that they may have to fly past on the first few turns) with footpads or whatever you like. Remember also that you don't want to force player 2 into an unfair guessing game in which they have to recruit several scouts just to avoid a possible player 1 rush (player one, could, for example, recruit mostly slower, more powerful units, that would later push back the scouts that player 2 had to recruit in order to "play it safe" and avoid possible theft).

There's probably a bit more to perfect, but these are the main issues that I wanted to direct you to.

Like I said though, I really like this map- It's one of the freshest usermade maps I've seen in a long time, and I'm sure that its problems are repairable.

Post by **F8 Binds...** » April 13th, 2007, 9:25 pm

Doc- It seems your problem is hard to solve. I can come up with the following solutions:

1- Change the village layout so that gryphons and other fast units cannot steal villages- however this would leave a large gap inbetween the villages on either side, and taking the center would be near pointless.

2- Add more villages, making the effect smaller. This would make it so gryphons are always busy village grabbing until all the villages are captured. Possibly making it 1 gpv.

3- Decrease the starting gold from 100 to 75 or 50.

The problem is the starting keeps are 60 grass hexes away. that's almost like a 60x60 map, only condensed in a 35x35.

I really appreciate your commentary! I will be testing this when possible. (I haven't had much time lately- this was made in 10 minutes.)

Post by **Doc Paterson** » April 13th, 2007, 11:53 pm

F8 Binds... wrote:Doc- It seems your problem is hard to solve.

I don't think that the P1 advantage issue is particularly difficult to mitigate- Take a look at the official 1v1s.

F8 Binds... wrote: I can come up with the following solutions:

1- Change the village layout so that gryphons and other fast units cannot steal villages- however this would leave a large gap inbetween the villages on either side, and taking the center would be near pointless.

Is there some reason that you want "taking the center" to be significant? Do you want it to be like "Oh no, they took the center! It's all downhill from here!"

It just seems like an artificial construct will no real purpose, and I often have that thought when people say things like "But there will be no villages to fight over!"

That's silly, because village fights and the trading of village control will occur naturally when someone advances into the other side's territory and attempts an assault. "The center" does not need to have any particular weight from a design standpoint, just because it happens to be in the middle of a map. Central villages that one side can reach sooner are more about a slow draining death than any kind of anti-stalemating measure. I think often, people get this concept of the center the "action zone" because a lot of 2v2s are setup in this way, but are (unlike 1v1s) able to use 1221 to reduce P1 pressure.

Anyways, there are a few ways to lessen the problem. The simplest would be to place all villages for each intended sides in locations where no possible opposing unit could steal it. Another way would be to try to imitate the 1221 of a 2v2, and allow P1 less initial recruits, perhaps even half as much. This can cause problems later in the game though, if P1 has the need to recruit more troops than their castle hexes allow.

My favorite solution is to allow defending leaders easy access to villages that could be thief targets in the early turns, allowing them to blow back any reckless P1 units. This is a generally fun solution as well, and bears slight similarities to the 1221 of a 2v2.

F8 Binds... wrote: 2- Add more villages, making the effect smaller. This would make it so gryphons are always busy village grabbing until all the villages are captured. Possibly making it 1 gpv.

The advantage would still be there though. Granted, it's a matter of degrees, but it's still a disadvantaging factor for player 2, and probably shouldn't be an influence on games played on the map, if you can help it. 1 gpv games can do some weird things to some of the factional matchups, and village count also has some influence here, but that's too big of a topic to get into right now.

F8 Binds... wrote: 3- Decrease the starting gold from 100 to 75 or 50.

That'd actually make things worse for player 2 if they lost those villages. I wouldn't recommend it.

F8 Binds... wrote: I really appreciate your commentary! I will be testing this when possible. (I haven't had much time lately- this was made in 10 minutes.)

Ten minutes? I double my praise for this map!

Post by **F8 Binds...** » April 14th, 2007, 12:31 am

(look below)

Post by **F8 Binds...** » April 14th, 2007, 12:31 am

Good point. Here's a revision of it, I ended up killing two villages and moving 4 others.

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unit12 · Post by **unit12** » April 14th, 2007, 1:52 am

removed

Post by **F8 Binds...** » April 14th, 2007, 3:21 pm

P1 advantage from my view point has been killed. I let a Knalgan (P1) and drake AI battle it out while I watched. Drake won. I noticed this is one of the few maps that actually begins at day- as in the actual fighting. I am including a revision to help reduce the amount of time it takes to finish off a leader if he hangs out in the end of the "tunnel". This passage has been widened. Two new water villages have been added after the final castles. Here it is:

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theothercolin · Post by **theothercolin** » April 14th, 2007, 5:42 pm

I agreed with Doc right off the bat, the thing looks nice Ill admit. But I noticed the first turn advantage right away too, but I think you fixed that and if thats the case looks good, and I definately agree with the use of cave wall/impassable to lengthen, inhibit, whatever the movement and to make smaller maps appear and feel larger. Good job on the map, keep it up, Ive noticed your progression as a map maker.

Post by **Velensk** » April 14th, 2007, 6:14 pm

This looks like a realy neat map... The olny issue I have with it is somewhat minor and that is that there is olny one possible front, (what I mean is that there are not multiple paths so there is olny one theater.)

I think the standard practice is going to be first turn recruit scouts you want, send leader trudging to second castle, once you reach the castle then get infantry units.

Post by **F8 Binds...** » April 15th, 2007, 12:18 am

(what I mean is that there are not multiple paths so there is olny one theater.)

You've inspired another map, which soon is in the coming

.

Darn Penguin · Post by **Darn Penguin** » April 15th, 2007, 3:29 pm

I'm going to go ahead and edit this post, since it has been rendered completely irrelevant.

And a tip for the future, F8:

You're just supposed to write those venting letters, not mail them.

Weeksy · Post by **Weeksy** » April 15th, 2007, 6:39 pm

Meh... His map is balanced, if not as fun... it's like isar's, people like taking moderately worthwhile maps and making them fast.... it cuts down on the fun in my opinion, but fast games are popular enough I think Unit's has it's uses... as for me, I'd hope f8's map gets into the main package, it really is my favorite 1v1 map of all time...

Post by **F8 Binds...** » April 15th, 2007, 8:22 pm

the second keep can be reached by any leader in two turns. (shock trooper excluded, but he is generally slow on everything) from the second keep you can get to the third in three turns. (every leader.) So they are equal, hence no leader advantages. Notice how the dwarves can go through any cave in one turn.

Konrad II · Post by **Konrad II** » April 15th, 2007, 9:34 pm

shock trooper excluded, but he is generally slow on everything

Yeah, and he isn't an issue either : in the newest version(the unstable), the shock trooper isn't, I think, included in the Leaders list.