New commands invoked by ':' , "undo attack"

soulmate81 · Post by **soulmate81** » March 19th, 2007, 7:37 am

Hi.
Suggersion nr. 1
I think it could be a good idea to add few commands to 'command line'
There is a command to write a savegame but there is not to load it.
So it would be great if you could just type :l savegame (or longer version :load savegame). Of course with '!' commands woud not require any confirmation and so on..

Suggestion nr. 2
There is an option to undo the move with 'u' key but, if the move ends up with an attack of hostile unit we cannot undo it.
Do you think game would be too easy it that option was included ?

What do you think about that ?

( Wesnoth 1.3.1, Fedora 2.6.19-1.2911.6.5.fc6)

Imp · Post by **Imp** » March 19th, 2007, 9:20 am

Any events that use the RNG cannot be undone. Otherwise people will undo attacks and redo them until they get 100% hits and evade.

Post by **irrevenant** » March 19th, 2007, 11:50 am

Imp wrote:Any events that use the RNG cannot be undone. Otherwise people will undo attacks and redo them until they get 100% hits and evade.

No, otherwise people can undo attacks and redo them. Whether they will is entirely up to them, and I don't know that it's our position to mandate how to best enjoy the game.

It sounds like a pretty tedious approach to me but, outside of MP, I can't see who it would harm.

Post by **Darth Fool** » March 19th, 2007, 12:18 pm

irrevenant wrote:
Imp wrote:Any events that use the RNG cannot be undone. Otherwise people will undo attacks and redo them until they get 100% hits and evade.
No, otherwise people can undo attacks and redo them. Whether they will is entirely up to them, and I don't know that it's our position to mandate how to best enjoy the game.

It sounds like a pretty tedious approach to me but, outside of MP, I can't see who it would harm.

The question in my mind is not who it would harm, but how it would benefit? In particular, the : commands are mostly for debugging purposes. I presume such a command would only be available in debug mode. In order to make the case that this should be added it would need to be argued that this would help for debugging purposes more than the added complication of an additional : command and the additional maintenance headache of dealing with an even more complicated undo algorithm. If it was implemented it would probably be something like a boolean switch in debug that allows you to undo everything.

soulmate81 · Post by **soulmate81** » March 19th, 2007, 12:33 pm

What do you think about suggestion 1.

Does it make sense to you to include ":load savegame" command ?
Personally I think it would be not very stupid feature after all and could take only a while of coding.

Regards.
Greg

Post by **Dave** » March 19th, 2007, 1:05 pm

Suggestion 1: possible, though most save games have names that would be tedious to type. Possibly one could just type :load and it'd bring up the load dialog.

Suggestion 2: I don't see the point of this. The entire idea of allowing undo is to allow players to plan out their moves more easily. Undoing an attack clearly has an entirely different purpose. In any case, even if this would have any benefit at all, it certainly does not have sufficient benefit to justify the (significant) difficulty in coding it.

Post by **irrevenant** » March 19th, 2007, 8:49 pm

Darth Fool wrote:The question in my mind is not who it would harm, but how it would benefit?

Clarification: I was talking to the idea of allowing undo of attacks, not to this specific implementation of doing it by overloading the ':' key.

Dave wrote:Suggestion 2: I don't see the point of this. The entire idea of allowing undo is to allow players to plan out their moves more easily. Undoing an attack clearly has an entirely different purpose.

It has similar purposes - it allows the player (especially the novice one) to experiment with different moves and see which work best.

It also avoids a similar annoyance to the fog one, where you attack then want to undo a move.

Dave wrote: In any case, even if this would have any benefit at all, it certainly does not have sufficient benefit to justify the (significant) difficulty in coding it.

Fair enough, then.

soulmate81 · Post by **soulmate81** » March 21st, 2007, 8:35 am

[quote] Suggestion 1: possible, though most save games have names that would be tedious to type. Possibly one could just type :load and it'd bring up the load dialog. [/quote]

Hi.
About the "new command" feature...
I didn't want to wait untill next release of the game so...
I've implemented for my personal use, and if you think that it would be any gain for the game, just tell to who I sould send changed source code.

Regards
Greg[/quote]

Post by **Darth Fool** » March 21st, 2007, 12:00 pm

soulmate81 wrote:
Suggestion 1: possible, though most save games have names that would be tedious to type. Possibly one could just type :load and it'd bring up the load dialog.
Hi.
About the "new command" feature...
I didn't want to wait untill next release of the game so...
I've implemented for my personal use, and if you think that it would be any gain for the game, just tell to who I sould send changed source code.

Regards
Greg

https://gna.org/patch/?func=additem&group=wesnoth
you should also read the patch guidelines
https://gna.org/patch/?func=additem&group=wesnoth

JW · Post by JW » March 21st, 2007, 4:27 pm

irrevenant wrote:It has similar purposes - it allows the player (especially the novice one) to experminet with different moves and see which work best.

It also avoids a similar annoyance to the fog one, where you attack then want to undo a move.

Apparently you don't understand how much cheating this would put into the game. Even in SP people would be tempted to undo attacks far more than S/R, which I'm sure lots of people already do.

Why make it 10x easier to cheat in this game when we'd like to move in the other direction if possible??

Post by **CIB** » March 21st, 2007, 4:41 pm

For "the other direction", you'd have to remove random numbers =)

soulmate81 · Post by **soulmate81** » March 22nd, 2007, 9:57 am

I've submitted patch (https://gna.org/patch/?704)
2 new commands are added
1. ":load - displays the load game window
2. ":l <savegame> - loads the game if it exists. If not , nothing happens.
Hope you will like it

I've forgot to write that documentation shoud be updated as well
(of course if this patch will be accepted)

Now I think that second suggestion (about undoing the attack) was rather bad.
Lets not go back to that topic again :)

Regards
Greg

JW · Post by JW » March 22nd, 2007, 9:59 am

soulmate81 wrote:Now I think that second suggestion (about undoing the attack) was rather bad.
Lets not go back to that topic again

Regards
Greg

A man who quickly comes to his senses!

A good man indeed!

Masacroso · Post by **Masacroso** » March 30th, 2007, 3:05 pm

Undoing attacks is a really bad idea I think, you ever can see the approximate damage of a attack in the calculation box before to attack. It have no sense undoings attacks cause their are not good, ever if you are a novice you can try the game in the easy mode of read something about the rules: type of tileset, resistance, type of attack, amount of life, etc...

Post by **irrevenant** » March 31st, 2007, 4:24 am

Masacroso wrote:Undoing attacks is a really bad idea I think, you ever can see the approximate damage of a attack in the calculation box before to attack. It have no sense undoings attacks cause their are not good, ever if you are a novice you can try the game in the easy mode of read something about the rules: type of tileset, resistance, type of attack, amount of life, etc...

One good reason to allow undo attacks is that attacking currently breaks the undo chain.
eg. I move a unit, then I attack with a different unit. I then realise I've mismoved the first unit but can't do anything about it because I've attacked since. Annoying.