Extended Era revived - version 36

[greywolfexcel]

How about something like this:

Code: Select all

Novice Shaman -> Elder Shaman
---------------> Witch Doctor

Novice Shaman
------------------
HP: 22
Melee - Staff: 5-1 (impact)
Ranged - Curse: 3-5 (cold) (magical)
Movement: 5
Resist: 20% Holy

Elder Shaman
------------------
HP: 30
Melee - Staff: 6-2 (impact)
Ranged - Hex: 4-7 (cold) (magical)
Movement: 5
Resist: 20% Holy

Witch Doctor
------------------
HP: 32
Melee - Staff: 6-3 (impact)
Ranged - Hex: 3-7 (cold) (magical)
Movement: 5
Resist: 20% Holy

This way, the novice shaman is a weak mage with a lot of hits, making it useful for low-hp kills that are hard to get to (like footpads/thieves in forests/hills/etc). When it levels, it branches off to make a more powerful mage, while the other line is more of a mixed fighter with both respectable melee and ranged attacks, with emphasis on the ranged since it is, after all, a mage. The cost could stay the same (21 gold), since now I believe this unit would be worthwhile.

[Nova]

An upgrade is definitely necessary, and I like the way your layout and reasoning works, greywolfexcel. If you take away Drain, however, the shamans lose the characteristic that made them most unique. There are any number of ranged magical attackers already out there...

At any rate, something needs to be done. As is, I agree that only the Old Shaman might even barely be worth recruiting. And no upgrades always makes me sad...

[greywolfexcel]

True, very true. I originally was going to suggest having a large attack like 15-1 cold magical kind of like the thunderer, but then realized that the Commonwealth era already has this (Pyromancer). Then I figured that no unit except for the naga Myrmidon has over 5 attacks. The point of this unit is to give it a low-damage, very high rep magical attack that will basically guarantee the killing of a unit that is about to die, or just give a guaranteed chance of softening up a unit.

Hmm, upon closer inspection of the attacks and damage, this isn't working out the way I wanted it. I figured that a normal mage sometimes needs 3/3 attacks to kill a unit, which doesn't happen very often. This unit, in the same situation, would only need like 3/5 attacks to kill, but since the damage is low, that won't work. I'll post a revised version after I tackle the next problem: drain.

I think drain is basically worthless for mages, seeing as how they have low HP, and if even 2 units gang up on a mage, it's basically dead. The ghost has drain because it is a very low HP unit that *can* survive on the front lines, behind front lines, and especially while holding villages, and drain gives it that edge it needs to survive. We could compromise and give one branch drain with less damage, and the other more reps/damage, however. Let's try this, then:

Code: Select all

Novice Shaman -> Elder Shaman
---------------> Witch Doctor

Novice Shaman
------------------
HP: 23
Melee - Staff: 5-1 (impact)
Ranged - Hex: 3-6 (cold) (magical) (drain)
Movement: 5
Resist: 20% Holy

Elder Shaman
------------------
HP: 34
Melee - Staff: 6-2 (impact)
Ranged - Hex: 3-8 (cold) (magical) (drain)
Movement: 5
Resist: 20% Holy

Witch Doctor (loses drain and has less HP, but gets better damage)
------------------
HP: 30
Melee - Staff: 5-3 (impact)
Ranged - Curse: 3-10 (cold) (magical)
Movement: 5
Resist: 20% Holy 

Please make any changes/comments as you see fit. As far as the art goes, for now the current pictures would work, but in later versions it could be updated somewhat.

Oh, and by the by, if any admins could change my name to just "greywolf," that would be great.

[Truper]

I'd prefer that the Orc Shaman's attacks not be magical. One of the defining characteristics of the Northerners is that they have no mage, and I have never been too thrilled with the inclusion of the Troll Shaman for this reason.

[Noyga]

Yes, i think having a recruitable unit with the magical special in the northerners factions is a bad idea, it would alter too much the way the faction works.
I'd see the Lv1 stats based one of the actual 3 units.
For backgroud reasons, i wouldn't see very powerful orcish mages, so i'd rather see them max their level at level 2, but have two branches (like the saurians) rather that having 3 levels.
For the alternate branch, i need an idea (original orcish ability/special ?). Simply replacing drain with better damages might work.

[Noyga]

How about something like this ? :
Level 1: Orcish Shaman:
HP : 23
Cost : 19
XP : 44
melee : 5-1 impact (staff)
ranged : 9-2 cold with drain (curse)

Level 2: Orcish Witch Doctor:
HP : 34
melee : 6-2 impact (staff)
ranged : 10-3 cold with drain (curse)

Level 2: Orcish Warlock
HP: 36
melee : 8-1 impact (staff)
ranged : 9-4 cold without drain (curse)

[greywolfexcel]

I think that works, especially since the cost has gone down. I was just worried that they'd turn out to be too similar to the saurian line (cold curse), but having a non-magical attack that drains sets them apart far enough. However, I still think that 19 gold is a little much for a non-magical unit (even if it does drain). The orcish archer only costs 16 gold, and it has a 9-2 fire attack, with a melee attack that is stronger than this shaman's. I do realize that drain should be an expensive ability, but considering that this unit is really more of a support-type, perhaps 18 gold would be better.

Alas, I have no ideas for an alternative orcish special ability, however. Deluminate (the opposite of Illuminate, obviously) would be interesting, I think, for a weak level 2 unit, but I don't think that ability has been made yet.

[Noyga]

v0.20.1 is out.
This time, very minor animation updates, it should be compatible with 0.20.0 so there is no absolute need to update.
As usual xdeltas, changelog & offline version are available here : http://bluebloup.free.fr/wesnoth/Extended_Era/

[Noyga]

v errr 0.20.3
- New Kalifa falcons frames (With TC) by ijuric & Eleazar
- New translation : Italian (through is doesn't look complete yet)
- some image optimisation to reduce a little the download (with the same tool used by wesnoth).
- some other very minor stuff

- Should be backward compatible up to 0.20.0 - there is no absolute need to update
- Should be available offline at the usual place

PS: I also updated the Kalifa era for the new falcon frames & Italian translation.

[elricz]

Hi all,

With some modifications, the unit list script has been able to create the unit tree for the Extended Era. You can find it at http://zapicm.freeshell.org/stable/EXE/index.html
As the era uses information from mainline, there may be some places where navigation is not as expected, one know one is that the back to start button returns to the mainline main page for mainline units, even if they are called from the Extended Era tree.
I haven't put a breakdown by race, it would be too huge. Even the faction one takes a while.

Any comments/suggestions are appreciated.

[Truper]

The Aragwaith sword wielder should be Swordsman, not Swordman. Swordsman is one of those annoying words in English that makes up its own rules. A warrior with a sword is a swordsman, while one with a spear is a spearman, one with a pike a pikeman, etc. Minor point, but...

[Noyga]

Hmmm i understood the wrong way and i did the opposite.
I'll fix it, especially since i have another good reason to break the current strings (some Steppe orcs descriptions are broken).
This will be fixed in 0.20.4

[Truper]

The Dark Elves need some rebalancing, in my opinion. Not only do they have too many toys (virtually every special ability in the game), but many of the units are either overpowered or underpriced, depending on how you want to look at it. For right now, I'm just going to suggest some repricing, although I think the faction should really be looked at in terms of its overall abilities, and some of them removed.

Enchantress:

Compare to Rebel/Loyalist Mage. The Enchantress has 6-2 impact melee, the Mage has 5-1. 140% advantage to the Enchantress. The Enchantress has 6-3 magical fire ranged, the Mage has 7-3. 17% advantage Mage. The Enchantress has 32 hp, the Mage has 24. 33% advantage Enchantress. The Enchantress has 10% cold resistance, the Mage has 0%. The Enchantress has better movement in Mushroom Grove, Shallow Water, Hills, Cave and Swamp terrains. The Enchantress has worse defence in a Castle, but better defence on Mushroom Grove, Hills and Cave. The Enchantress even takes 3 less xp to advance, although it does not get a choice of advancements.

An Enchantress gives up a small amount of magical firepower compared to a Mage to gain a reasonable amount of melee capability, many more hit points, cold resistance, better movement, and generally better defence (I wonder if the Enchantress' 50% defence in a castle isn't a mistake). It seems to me that the Enchantress is a much better unit than a Mage, yet they both cost 20. I suggest the Enchantress should cost 26 gold. This sounds like a lot, but the Enchantress is a *very* good unit.


Fighter:

I am not sure what this unit should cost, and a direct comparison to anything in the Default Era is hard. The best comparison might be the Dwarvish Fighter, but I had a hard time deciding which unit was more valuable than the other, so I am not going to quibble with the Fighter's cost of 15


Hunter:

Compare to Orcish Assassin. The Hunter has 5-2 blade melee, the Assassin 8-1. 25% advantage Hunter. The Hunter has 4-3 pierce poison ranged, the Assassin has 3-3 blade. Clear advantage Hunter, although hard to quantify, since both units will be counting on poison to do damage and they have an equal chance of poisoning the enemy, and since I think pierce is somewhat more valuable than blade. The Hunter has 27 hp, comapred the the Assassin's 26. The Hunter has 10% better blade resistance, 30% better cold, 10% worse fire, 20% worse holy (this appears to be an error), and 30% better impact. On balance, advantage Hunter, especially if the Hunter's 0% holy resistance is an error. The Hunter has better movement in Mushroom Grove, Hills, Mountains, and Cave. Its only defensive advantage is 10% in cave. The Hunter seems to be much more valuable than an Assassin, yet the Hunter costs 18 the the Assassin's 17. I suggest the Hunter cost 21 gold, perhaps 22.


Lizard Rider:

Compare to Loyalist Horseman. The Lizard Rider has 10-2 pierce charge melee, the Horseman 9-2. But the Lizard Rider also has a 5-3 blade melee attack, meaning it doesn't always have to risk doubled retaliation. Advantage Lizard Rider, but hard to quantify. The Lizard Rider has 20% worse blade resistance, 20% worse cold, 10% worse fire, 30% worse impact, but 20% better pierce. Advantage Horseman. The Lizard Rider has a much better move type, (I'm getting a bit tired of listing all the differences), more than negating the Horseman's additional movement point, in my opinion. The Lizard Rider also has a much better set of defences than the Horseman. The Lizard Rider has 1 less hit point than the Horseman. I would trade the worse resistances of the Lizard Rider for the better defences, superior mavement through rough terrain, and better damage potential, so on balance, I believe the Lizard Rider to be a better unit than the Horseman, yet the Lizard costs 22 to the Horseman's 23. I suggest the Lizard Rider should cost 25.


Noble:

Compare to Dark Elf Fighter. These are essentially the same unit, except that the Noble has 6-3 sword compared to the Fighter's 5-4, and one less hit point. For these losses, it gains the option of a 10-1 impact slow attack. I'm not sure that this makes the Noble more valuable than the Fighter, though the Noble costs 17, and the Fighter 15. No change suggested, although I'd like to hear other people's opinion, and I am happy with the recent reduction in price from the previous 22


Wizard:

The cost for this unit was recently raised from 18 to 19, but I don't think the change was enough. Compare to Dark Adept. Not only does the Wizard have 25% greater damage potential than the Adept, but 2 more hit points, 10% more cold resistance, and the usual Dark Elf movement/defensive advantages in rough terrain. This suggests to me that it is more than 25% more potent than an Adept, but costs less than 25% more at 19 vs 16. I suggest the Wizard cost 21 gold, perhaps 22.

I realize that if all these suggestions were adopted, the Dark Elves would become a very expensive faction, and this might cause some problems considering the typical amounts of gold available in scenarios. On the other hand, I hope I have shown that the abilities of these units justifies the cost I have suggested for them. The other option, of course, is to reduce the capabilities of the units, but I felt more comfortable suggesting price increases rather than tampering with the faction creator's vision of how the faction should work.

[Temuchin Khan]

Interesting analysis. Whether or not your suggestions are taken, that post is sure to help with the balancing.

I realize that if all these suggestions were adopted, the Dark Elves would become a very expensive faction, and this might cause some problems considering the typical amounts of gold available in scenarios. On the other hand, I hope I have shown that the abilities of these units justifies the cost I have suggested for them. The other option, of course, is to reduce the capabilities of the units, but I felt more comfortable suggesting price increases rather than tampering with the faction creator's vision of how the faction should work.

How about this: significantly reduce their defenses in all non-cavernous terrains. Given that at the beginning of the Dark Elf campaign they live deeper underground than the Dwarves, and have been living there for generations, doesn't it make sense that they would function poorly outside of the caves? For that matter, why not significantly reduce their effectiveness in forests, too?

What I have in mind is only 10% or 20% defense in forest and grassland and similar terrains.

[Noyga]

Yeah, i think he's got too far with some price increase, but made some more or less valid remarks.
I also think that 25+ prices are insane for level 1 unit and should be avoided.
If i make some changes i won't only change the prices.

For information i already changed the Lizard rider movetype, it has less defense now (in the yet unfinished 0.21 release), here is how it currently looks:
- deep water: 20 % defense, uneachable
- shallow water: 20 % defense, 3 moves
- swamp: 40% defense, 2 moves
- grassland: 30% defense, 1 move
- sand: 40% defense, 1 move
- forest: 40% defense, 2 moves
- hills: 50% defense, 1 move
- mountains: 40% defense, 5 moves
- village: 40% defense, 1 move
- castle: 50% defense, 1 move
- caves: 40% defense, 1 move
- snow: 20% defense, 4 moves
- mushroom: 40% defense, 1 move

The 0% resistance to holy of the Hunter looks like an error, but background-wise it makes sense. Since those creature live in caves and have pale skin they would be unused to light, thus would take a little more damage from holy attack.
How about applying this to the whole faction (perharps except the mages and lizards ?) Or just a 10% resistance, instead of 20% ?

Temuchin: About defense, well, cave is rather uncommon in MP, so a too low defense outside of caves will make them unusable in MP.
And being elves i see them as a more or less elusive race, so a too low defense doesn't makes sense to me.

For the units balance:
Enchantress: I'd rather change the HP & ranged attack stats, perhaps +1 gold but no more. How about simply changing its ranged attack to 5-3 ? I see this unit as a mixed fighter with a little better ranged attack.

Hunter: well i always wondered. Do they really need to have poison (for background reason) ? I was thinking about removing poison on turning them into conventional archers.

Lizard Rider: see above, might still needs some changes, through.

Wizard: I was thinking about reducing his HP...

Noble vs Warrior: the Captain advancement bothers me a little, IMHO it looks too strong. I was thinking about removing ledership from the captain/marshal line, but i'm not sure it fits well wiith their background.

I also made some changes to the Orcish shamans. Now i have :
Orcish Shaman: (the tan one)
level 1, 33XP
advanceto: Orcish Witch Doctor,Orcish Warlock
cost:18
HP: 23
5 moves, smallfoot (+70% defense in village)
attacks:
- 5-1 melee impact (staff)
- 8-2 ranged cold with drain (curse)
Orcish Witch doctor: (the black one), RIPLIB advancement
level 2 (max level)
HP: 33
5 moves, smallfoot (+70% defense in village)
attacks:
- 6-2 melee impact (staff)
- 8-3 ranged cold with drain (curse)
Orcish Warlock: (the red one), more powerful curse but looses drain
level 2 (max level)
HP: 36
5 moves, smallfoot (+70% defense in village)
attacks:
- 8-1 melee impact (staff)
- 8-4 ranged cold (curse)
Todo : descriptions for the advancements (notice that the names are changeable too).