Undead vs rebels

[Konrad II]

Hello, I've been playing(again) since about 2 weeks now, and I cant help but notice I am that easily owned by rebels.

Today I duelled(Blitz) a Rebels player, I was Undead using level 2 adept. He won, I couldn't face his woses, even with many of my adepts, as he riposted too hard after my own attack.

Any suggestion as to how to face them? I have read "How to play Undead" and followed it as much as i could, but still have serious problems fighting Rebels.

EDIT: forgot to mention we did 2 duels, then a 3rd where we exchanged factions and where I owned my undead opponent, by using wose, mage and a few warriors spam, although he had a good luck

[PingPangQui]

Hello, I've been playing(again) since about 2 weeks now, and I cant help but notice I am that easily owned by rebels.

Today I duelled(Blitz) a Rebels player, I was Undead using level 2 adept. He won, I couldn't face his woses, even with many of my adepts, as he riposted too hard after my own attack.

Any suggestion as to how to face them? I have read "How to play Undead" and followed it as much as i could, but still have serious problems fighting Rebels.

EDIT: forgot to mention we did 2 duels, then a 3rd where we exchanged factions and where I owned my undead opponent, by using wose, mage and a few warriors spam, although he had a good luck

Hm maybe use less adepts and buy some ghuls and skellies instead. I find it sometimes easier to simply chop woses down at night (they have low defense anyway - so why use adepts here. The only thing you really need them for is to handle elfes on high defense terrain. I wouldn't buy more than 2 via elfes though (presuming standard settings).

[F8 Binds...]

Hello, I've been playing(again) since about 2 weeks now, and I cant help but notice I am that easily owned by rebels.

Today I duelled(Blitz) a Rebels player, I was Undead using level 2 adept. He won, I couldn't face his woses, even with many of my adepts, as he riposted too hard after my own attack.

Any suggestion as to how to face them? I have read "How to play Undead" and followed it as much as i could, but still have serious problems fighting Rebels.

EDIT: forgot to mention we did 2 duels, then a 3rd where we exchanged factions and where I owned my undead opponent, by using wose, mage and a few warriors spam, although he had a good luck

What units are you using against him? A little help...

Skeletons counter woses, but avoid woses at day, and butcher them at night. Skeletons also counter mages, as well as any melee unit in your inventory. Mages are more important to kill even than woses. Also note that the adept does 12-2 at night compared to mage's 5-3 . Don't let your adepts out alone on the front line. 2-3 adepts with a ghost, ghoul or 2, and a couple skeletons are a nice combo. do NOT recruit archers... even elvish fighters can kill them. and woses OWN them. leave ghouls in front, to poison woses and other units that melee them, and use skeletons to cover adepts. since woses are slow, try to stay out of their movement range. this should be the basic strategy vs rebels. To give any further advice, i need to know what HE is recruiting...

[Konrad II]

Hello, I've been playing(again) since about 2 weeks now, and I cant help but notice I am that easily owned by rebels.

Today I duelled(Blitz) a Rebels player, I was Undead using level 2 adept. He won, I couldn't face his woses, even with many of my adepts, as he riposted too hard after my own attack.

Any suggestion as to how to face them? I have read "How to play Undead" and followed it as much as i could, but still have serious problems fighting Rebels.

EDIT: forgot to mention we did 2 duels, then a 3rd where we exchanged factions and where I owned my undead opponent, by using wose, mage and a few warriors spam, although he had a good luck

What units are you using against him? A little help...

Skeletons counter woses, but avoid woses at day, and butcher them at night. Skeletons also counter mages, as well as any melee unit in your inventory. Mages are more important to kill even than woses. Also note that the adept does 12-2 at night compared to mage's 5-3 . Don't let your adepts out alone on the front line. 2-3 adepts with a ghost, ghoul or 2, and a couple skeletons are a nice combo. do NOT recruit archers... even elvish fighters can kill them. and woses OWN them. leave ghouls in front, to poison woses and other units that melee them, and use skeletons to cover adepts. since woses are slow, try to stay out of their movement range. this should be the basic strategy vs rebels. To give any further advice, i need to know what HE is recruiting...

For Blitz I tend to make "symetry" to make it fair on both sides for me.
1st turn:
1 adept 1 skel on left. 1 adept 1 skel on right. A ghoul for one of the sides. A ghost or bat for the village.

2nd turn: no recruitment.
3rd turn: ghoul for right side.

After that, I usually get either a skel or a ghoul for whatever side, or Water reinforcement.

Even at night the elves tend to own me when theyre on their own terrain, although if they attacked before I usually can chop through.
problem is, I usually can only attack an unit from 2 hexes, because of a good positionning of my opponent, so to kill an elf for ex I need 3 of 4 adept attacks, I usually dont get that much and get owned the turn after. If I send in my skels, I usually dont do much cause of the forest / village, and get sent to doom by mages / woses that are in the back(mostly mages are in the back).

The problem is, I tend to not be able to kill my foe before it actually kills me. For wose i get extra probs, i do like 12-2 on them with adept, so its useless, rather, to use them on those, cause it'll just smash me the turn after. If I send in skel to attack it, they tend to do much dmg on me cause I'm on a 40% or 50%, so 10 to 20 damage versus a usual 18 from me. i can then send one more on it and hopefully kill it, but thats when his other units strike back, such as another wose or mage that just tears me apart cause I took damage from the wose by attacking it.
If instead of skel, I send adept its the same, i get owned the turn after.

Also I tend to defend villages with ghoul, usually during day, and sometimes to try poisoning wounded woses.


I hope I helped you as to what you needed to know about my recruitment and global strategies. and for some suggestions as to how to deal with my problems; ty in advance

EDIT:

Plus I would like to particularly thank JW for his great "How to play" guides , they are VERY helpful

One more edit:

I just realised i read your post wrong, you meant my opponent's recruiting right?

Well, for 1st turn(there was fog), I believe he recruited:

Elvish Fighter x2
Wose x2
Mage x1, and something else, like another fighter or mage if he could

2nd turn: mage or wose
3rd turn etc: Spam wose / mage / elvish fighter(was only at the end)

[F8 Binds...]

What units are you using against him? A little help...

Skeletons counter woses, but avoid woses at day, and butcher them at night. Skeletons also counter mages, as well as any melee unit in your inventory. Mages are more important to kill even than woses. Also note that the adept does 12-2 at night compared to mage's 5-3 . Don't let your adepts out alone on the front line. 2-3 adepts with a ghost, ghoul or 2, and a couple skeletons are a nice combo. do NOT recruit archers... even elvish fighters can kill them. and woses OWN them. leave ghouls in front, to poison woses and other units that melee them, and use skeletons to cover adepts. since woses are slow, try to stay out of their movement range. this should be the basic strategy vs rebels. To give any further advice, i need to know what HE is recruiting...

For Blitz I tend to make "symetry" to make it fair on both sides for me.
1st turn:
1 adept 1 skel on left. 1 adept 1 skel on right. A ghoul for one of the sides. A ghost or bat for the village.

2nd turn: no recruitment.
3rd turn: ghoul for right side.

After that, I usually get either a skel or a ghoul for whatever side, or Water reinforcement.

Even at night the elves tend to own me when theyre on their own terrain, although if they attacked before I usually can chop through.
problem is, I usually can only attack an unit from 2 hexes, because of a good positionning of my opponent, so to kill an elf for ex I need 3 of 4 adept attacks, I usually dont get that much and get owned the turn after. If I send in my skels, I usually dont do much cause of the forest / village, and get sent to doom by mages / woses that are in the back(mostly mages are in the back).

The problem is, I tend to not be able to kill my foe before it actually kills me. For wose i get extra probs, i do like 12-2 on them with adept, so its useless, rather, to use them on those, cause it'll just smash me the turn after. If I send in skel to attack it, they tend to do much dmg on me cause I'm on a 40% or 50%, so 10 to 20 damage versus a usual 18 from me. i can then send one more on it and hopefully kill it, but thats when his other units strike back, such as another wose or mage that just tears me apart cause I took damage from the wose by attacking it.
If instead of skel, I send adept its the same, i get owned the turn after.

Also I tend to defend villages with ghoul, usually during day, and sometimes to try poisoning wounded woses.


I hope I helped you as to what you needed to know about my recruitment and global strategies. and for some suggestions as to how to deal with my problems; ty in advance

EDIT:

Plus I would like to particularly thank JW for his great "How to play" guides , they are VERY helpful

One more edit:

I just realised i read your post wrong, you meant my opponent's recruiting right?

Well, for 1st turn(there was fog), I believe he recruited:

Elvish Fighter x2
Wose x2
Mage x1, and something else, like another fighter or mage if he could

2nd turn: mage or wose
3rd turn etc: Spam wose / mage / elvish fighter(was only at the end)

Well, ignore the fighters until last. period. they only cost 14 gold, and don't counter any unit ecept adepts/ghouls. Skeltons butcher them . Also, woses cost much more than skeletons do. and woses although they do around 12-2 to skeltons at night, you do 9-3 to them at night. Also, unless the opponent gets VERY lucky, 2 adepts can kill almost any unit at night, or even at dusk or dawn, and if even if they don't, a skeleton can finish the job quite easy. (this refers to all but woses) for woses, just use adepts on them at NIGHT, and skeletons at NIGHT. ghouls are the units to take hits from mages on, if you have to take hits from mages. note that mages are very weak at night, so at night, be aggressive and kill as many mages and woses AS POSSIBLE at night. Don't recruit bats- no resistances, less hp than even the ghost. keep ghosts away from mages. always kill mages when you get the chance. and DON'T be hesistant at night! if you don't attack at night, you will get killed during day. Also note wose's poor defense- 20% average, only 40% in forest. Your opponent is actually missing an important part of his attack- elvish shamans. they slow skeletons, making them nearly useless. If you merely cannot kill your opponent because of his high defense, you need to either poison those units OR avoid them. killing one unit is better than injuring them. If you can't kill a wose, just focus on the wose with all' you got. no wose can survive 4-6 units attacking it.

edit: you wanna play me with undead and i'm rebels and then play me with rebels and I'd use undead. what time zone you in? i'm GMT -7:00, or seven hours before Grand Marshal Time. play at 2:00am GMT? (7:00pm for me)

[Konrad II]

Yes that would be great =)
I'll be on the server at that time, GMT is uhh... England time -1, thats what you mean right? If so I'll be there at 2 AM prolly playing with a friend called Willburn

[F8 Binds...]

Yes that would be great =)
I'll be on the server at that time, GMT is uhh... England time -1, thats what you mean right? If so I'll be there at 2 AM prolly playing with a friend called Willburn

Sorry, Greenwich Mean Time. you ARE THE GMT. that means at 2:00 am. Just note that I might absolutely cream you anyways, depending on your skill. I've been playing since early 2005, that's nearly 2 years... If you aren't the GMT, you must live pretty west in the UK. Atleast london is on the GMT.

[Konrad II]

lol, whatever, i got some problems with time zones. So, um, i think you meant 2 AM for me, so I'll be on server at 2 AM

Dont worry about owning me, you probably will anyway, I dont mind and hope I can improve by fighting you.

Umm... Btw, I live in France! So I'm England time(apparently thats what GMT is, geh) -1.

[F8 Binds...]

lol, whatever, i got some problems with time zones. So, um, i think you meant 2 AM for me, so I'll be on server at 2 AM

Dont worry about owning me, you probably will anyway, I dont mind and hope I can improve by fighting you.

Umm... Btw, I live in France! So I'm England time(apparently thats what GMT is, geh) -1.

if you are at paris, you are actually +1. (sorry though you were britian. that means 3:00.

[Higher Game]

Ghosts just aren't that useful against elves. They're weak for their price, and Rebels can easily kill them with mages and woses. Even elf fighters can do a little damage with arrows, sometimes enough to get them weak enough to die to 1 hit from a wose; it makes a difference. You need to be very aggressive, and the ghost is a defensive unit best used against Knalgans, who lack magic, and Northerners, who actually fight decent at day against Undead. The trick is to somehow kill any nearby archers, and the ghost is damn near invincible.

Now, back to the matchup. You'll need lots of skeletons. Ghouls and ghosts are defensive, and you want to make kills immediately, since you'll be up against regenerators. Make loads of skeletons and dark adepts, and little or nothing of anything else. Skeletons will beat woses at night, and can be used reasonably well at dusk/dawn, if you can catch them on bad terrain and attack from good terrain. The key is to own him on the first night, and survive the next day; if you can do that, the match is yours.

Bats are useful as scouts, obviously, and since you said that you often can't get more than 2 guys on an enemy, they can be useful in killing an injured unit. Shamans and mages don't hit back that hard, after all. I would make 1 bat, 3 dark adepts, and the rest skeletons. You want at least 2 dark adepts to try to own a single unit at once, so having 3 gives you 1 replacement, if you have some bad luck. Of course, it's probably a good idea to recruit the bat later, not on the first turn, since you need to get the offense out first and foremost.

[Tony Almeida]

I've been playing since early 2005, that's nearly 2 years...

Seriously?


What name do you use?

[F8 Binds...]

I've been playing since early 2005, that's nearly 2 years...

Seriously?


What name do you use?

I have used numerous names... here's some, from latest to oldest

F8_Binds...
greg
something_random
the_finisher
player

[Konrad II]

Wow, I was tired when i did this post

[F8 Binds...]

Ghosts just aren't that useful against elves. They're weak for their price, and Rebels can easily kill them with mages and woses. Even elf fighters can do a little damage with arrows, sometimes enough to get them weak enough to die to 1 hit from a wose; it makes a difference.

That is ridiculous. Ghost has resistances- the bat does not. Any player with a brain that functions knows to avoid mages with ghosts- that's just common sense. although bats are cheaper and have more movement, a single elvish fighter can walk down and injure a bat, where it takes either mages or the enemy focusing only on the ghost. You can also level the ghost into a wraith, which is the ultimate wose killer. The bat's drain attack means nothing when you have only 14 hp, and no resistances. The ghost is much better if you use it correctly.

You need to be very aggressive, and the ghost is a defensive unit best used against Knalgans, who lack magic, and Northerners, who actually fight decent at day against Undead. The trick is to somehow kill any nearby archers, and the ghost is damn near invincible.

archers? he shouldn't be recruiting any. And thunderers can weaken ghosts so ulfs can kill them, which they can do alone in day. If you are reffering to orcish archers, they aren't your only target. This topic refers to undead vs rebels, not undead vs knalgans.

Now, back to the matchup. You'll need lots of skeletons. Ghouls and ghosts are defensive, and you want to make kills immediately, since you'll be up against regenerators. Make loads of skeletons and dark adepts, and little or nothing of anything else. Skeletons will beat woses at night, and can be used reasonably well at dusk/dawn, if you can catch them on bad terrain and attack from good terrain. The key is to own him on the first night, and survive the next day; if you can do that, the match is yours.

Skeletons are nice, have 1 per every adept. Every skeleton should be a melee one, the only use for archers is to kill elvish scouts, which he will only have on his first recruit. Maybe recruit one on your first turn. Regeneration? only woses. and if he spams woses, well, he's toast. skeltons own them. When you refer to things, don't say LOADS, or LOTS. Say something like this- "You will want a decent amount" or "some". Your statement can be mis-interpreted to be, "Hey all I have to make is skeltons and adepts and the rest is cake." Instead of owning him the first night, own him EVERY NIGHT. Be agressive here, don't worry about woses and mages. When they come at night, they might finish a couple units, but not without exposing them, where you can finish them on your next turn. Instead of "Surviving" the first day, I suggest a full-retreat. This entices the enemy units to advance and spread too far, and you can kill them at the next dusk, or even at afternoon. Basically retreat at dawn at advance at dusk to minimize casualties during day and maximize kills during night.

Bats are useful as scouts, obviously, and since you said that you often can't get more than 2 guys on an enemy, they can be useful in killing an injured unit. Shamans and mages don't hit back that hard, after all. I would make 1 bat, 3 dark adepts, and the rest skeletons. You want at least 2 dark adepts to try to own a single unit at once, so having 3 gives you 1 replacement, if you have some bad luck. Of course, it's probably a good idea to recruit the bat later, not on the first turn, since you need to get the offense out first and foremost.

Bats, as mentioned earlier, should be avoided UNLESS there is a VERY large water area with MANY water villages. Avoid bats. (AND BATS GET KILLLED AS EASY AS GHOSTS!!! (if not easier!)) When you say mages don't hit back that hard, do you mean at night? any other time they hit back HARD. 8-3 to skeletons, at dusk, and 10-3 to skeltons at day, they hit back hard. Shamans don't, that's not their purpose. Their purpose is to slow / heal. When a shaman slows your skeleton, the skeleton is almost as weak as a WC. (Walking Corpse) Forgetting ghouls? no mention of them in you recomended recruitment. I recommend this-

1 ghoul
2 adepts
2 skeletons (not archers)
1 ghost

This is the golden advice to look at.

[sorry that i couldn't be on, had to put in a couple extra hours for work]

AND YES, I'M ONLY 14 AND I WORK!!!

[Yogibear]

Most has been said already. But there is one thing, that i think was overlooked so far:

Konrad said, his opponent positioned his units, so that they couldn't be attacked by more than two enemies. That really is a problem because all suggestions so far based on the assumptions that rebel woses and mages get killed. If not you are indeed subject to a heavy counter attack, even at night.

This is indeed a difficult problem. I looked at the new Blitz map and there are indeed some locations, that allow for a good defense for elves. Now what to do about it? Some suggestions:

1.
Did you try to march through the center? you might be able to get around the defense line. However, this requires some more units, as one of your wings will be weakened significantly. So it is rather an option for later turns.

2.
Retreat at day and let your opponent get deep into your territory. Lure him by offering an additional village at say second part of day. Get him close enough to be in reach of your leader. Then wait for the right time to attack and take your leader with you to outnumber the rebels. Plan this in advance, timing is most important here. Staying one turn too long can be deadly for elves.

3.
You might consider to combine option 2 with sending your ghost into the back of the enemy forces (if possible). Preferably at dusk being player 1. The ghost will probably get killed but it will most likely take 2 units to do that (one of them a mage). This can delay the retreat of your opponents units into their preferred positions. Timing is very important here. Also make sure you leave enemy units on bad terrain.

4.
Even in the middle of the game, there must be some weak points in the frontline, that you can attack at night. If you are sure there aren't any, please post a replay or give us a screenshot to have a look at.

5.
You don't always have to fight your way through. Woses are slow and bypassing them might as well be an option.

One very important thing in the end:
Don't fight elves at their conditions. Make them get out of their forest to fight you and you are halfway done. I know this is easier said than done. Be creative and don't run into a well secured frontline.