The Dwarvish Treasure - Version 0.5
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Well, what about this: found valid cache at 'H:/Programme/Wesnoth/userdata/cache/game.cfg-cache-v1.1.12-MEDIUM-NORMAL' using it
error config: Invalid alignment found for Kuandigin Deathblade: 'nuetral'
Its definitely your savegame crashing wesnoth, I suppose it is unrelated to the error messages though. I am loading a game versus 5 comps.
the Kuandigin Deathblade is in the Faehen era
error config: Invalid alignment found for Kuandigin Deathblade: 'nuetral'
Its definitely your savegame crashing wesnoth, I suppose it is unrelated to the error messages though. I am loading a game versus 5 comps.
the Kuandigin Deathblade is in the Faehen era
Well, this looks like a typo in the cfg-file of the "Kuandigin Deathblade" unit. Try to find the file and replace 'nuetral' with 'neutral'.RedLTeut wrote:Well, what about this: found valid cache at 'H:/Programme/Wesnoth/userdata/cache/game.cfg-cache-v1.1.12-MEDIUM-NORMAL' using it
error config: Invalid alignment found for Kuandigin Deathblade: 'nuetral'
Its definitely your savegame crashing wesnoth, I suppose it is unrelated to the error messages though. I am loading a game versus 5 comps.
the Kuandigin Deathblade is in the Faehen era
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
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DraconicBlessing
- Posts: 71
- Joined: October 21st, 2006, 8:40 pm
- Location: Chch, New Zealand
Skirmishers are horribly over-powered in DT. They can slink in to grab either a ring or a sceptre without any trouble, whereas everyone else has to usually take out at least two of the Guardians to be able to get these items. I propose removing all skirmishing units from the possible choices.
The lack of traits gives Undead units a slight advantage (as they don't normally have traits anyway), however this isn't likely to be game-breaking, imho. Just thought I'd bring it up.
Objectives strings:
Line 88: description= _ "Claim the dwarvish treasure for yourself"
Line 92: description= _ "Anybody takes the treasure before you"
Question? Are racial descriptions considered proper nouns in Wesnoth? I mean, is Dwarvish always capitalized or not? I'm guessing not, as that would also mean that Human would have to be as well.
The lack of traits gives Undead units a slight advantage (as they don't normally have traits anyway), however this isn't likely to be game-breaking, imho. Just thought I'd bring it up.
Objectives strings:
Line 88: description= _ "Claim the dwarvish treasure for yourself"
Line 92: description= _ "Anybody takes the treasure before you"
Question? Are racial descriptions considered proper nouns in Wesnoth? I mean, is Dwarvish always capitalized or not? I'm guessing not, as that would also mean that Human would have to be as well.
The Past never was.
The Future never will be.
There is only Now.
The Future never will be.
There is only Now.
Some feedback about this scenario from a quick solitaire game from one of it's longest standing critics... 
I really like the way this scenario is changing and improving - and that you are going to a lot of effort of making pretty deep changes to the scenario. The new 0.4 creeps look great! It's a fantastic leap forward!
However, as often happens in such situations, the gameplay is pretty much broken in 0.4 (as in some ways, it always was...). Things that caught my eye:
1. Too many creeps at less than 5 players. Simply spawn creeps somewhat proportional to the number of players, and you should be fine. I played a three-player game and every adventurer had twice the number of creeps converging on him - they just can't go anywhere! It's frustrating as well as hilarious.
2. Too many of the new creeps. The old ones are completely gone. Why? I think Neo's creeps are great, but I would still use them as "special" flavour creeps, not the standard fare (except the trollkin). Too many of the new creeps have multiple attacks, and the AI is at least slower by a factor of two trying to move them into position against the best target. Use the corpses, bats, trolls, etc again. Too many of the new creeps have cold and fire attacks that unbalance drake adventurers if used too much. Many also have slow and poison and should be used sparingly.
3. Creep AI: just takes forever. I'd put all of the creeps on guardian ai at the end of a turn, then randomly take a few creeps each turn and remove guardian ai. There's just too many units to move for the AI, and the game is boring if the AI takes a lot longer than all the players together. It will also stop the player from creep camping, making them more unpredictable.
4. High defense creeps: 70% defense for creeps is a no-no. No more than 50% defense should be a rule. An adventurer with 2 attacks will waste A LOT of turns simply trying to hit those bat swarms or rat swarms. It's completely annoying - this is a kind of heroic scenario, not one where the player fumbles around turn after turn without being able to do anything.
5. No more weapons: gone are the short bows and spears and so on. I think they were a pretty good way to make some hero types playable that weren't otherwise, although they were a little too easy to get. But not having them makes some types really, really hard to play (until they get a ring or staff). I'm not sure how to handle this. Maybe enable some weapons in the dialogue when you have killed specific creeps?
Bugs: in my early 0.4 version there were a few bugs:
1. village upgrading: I always got a dialogue and choices, but they never seemed to take effect. The only time I could upgrade was after a kill.
2. there was an extra dialogue per turn that wouldn't do anything, but kept popping up.
3. rings for melee only did 1 damage, although damage was displayed correctly in the unit profile. Did you misspell the damage type (cold)?
4. In my 3-adventurer version, I got killed a lot of times, and as the game filled up with creeps I got respawned in cave wall (with a VERY low defense).
If you need any help with the guardian ai / random creep spawning and moving I could lend you a hand.
I really like the way this scenario is changing and improving - and that you are going to a lot of effort of making pretty deep changes to the scenario. The new 0.4 creeps look great! It's a fantastic leap forward!
However, as often happens in such situations, the gameplay is pretty much broken in 0.4 (as in some ways, it always was...). Things that caught my eye:
1. Too many creeps at less than 5 players. Simply spawn creeps somewhat proportional to the number of players, and you should be fine. I played a three-player game and every adventurer had twice the number of creeps converging on him - they just can't go anywhere! It's frustrating as well as hilarious.
2. Too many of the new creeps. The old ones are completely gone. Why? I think Neo's creeps are great, but I would still use them as "special" flavour creeps, not the standard fare (except the trollkin). Too many of the new creeps have multiple attacks, and the AI is at least slower by a factor of two trying to move them into position against the best target. Use the corpses, bats, trolls, etc again. Too many of the new creeps have cold and fire attacks that unbalance drake adventurers if used too much. Many also have slow and poison and should be used sparingly.
3. Creep AI: just takes forever. I'd put all of the creeps on guardian ai at the end of a turn, then randomly take a few creeps each turn and remove guardian ai. There's just too many units to move for the AI, and the game is boring if the AI takes a lot longer than all the players together. It will also stop the player from creep camping, making them more unpredictable.
4. High defense creeps: 70% defense for creeps is a no-no. No more than 50% defense should be a rule. An adventurer with 2 attacks will waste A LOT of turns simply trying to hit those bat swarms or rat swarms. It's completely annoying - this is a kind of heroic scenario, not one where the player fumbles around turn after turn without being able to do anything.
5. No more weapons: gone are the short bows and spears and so on. I think they were a pretty good way to make some hero types playable that weren't otherwise, although they were a little too easy to get. But not having them makes some types really, really hard to play (until they get a ring or staff). I'm not sure how to handle this. Maybe enable some weapons in the dialogue when you have killed specific creeps?
Bugs: in my early 0.4 version there were a few bugs:
1. village upgrading: I always got a dialogue and choices, but they never seemed to take effect. The only time I could upgrade was after a kill.
2. there was an extra dialogue per turn that wouldn't do anything, but kept popping up.
3. rings for melee only did 1 damage, although damage was displayed correctly in the unit profile. Did you misspell the damage type (cold)?
4. In my 3-adventurer version, I got killed a lot of times, and as the game filled up with creeps I got respawned in cave wall (with a VERY low defense
).If you need any help with the guardian ai / random creep spawning and moving I could lend you a hand.
Try some Multiplayer Scenarios / Campaigns
Skirmisher problem can be fixed by blocking the path to the fire rod, so far the ring is safe from a skirmisher. Just be aware and make sure a skirmisher can't just jump in and then start pwning.
One possible feature, after levels are maxed and a hero levels up he can get some gold to use next time he kills a creep.
Other people I've read have very nicely covered all other issues, especially the amount of creeps not being proportional to the number of players.
One possible feature, after levels are maxed and a hero levels up he can get some gold to use next time he kills a creep.
Other people I've read have very nicely covered all other issues, especially the amount of creeps not being proportional to the number of players.
I don't think so. Skirmishers would still only have to kill one of those guardians to get a path to the booty.MCP wrote:Skirmisher problem can be fixed by blocking the path to the fire rod, so far the ring is safe from a skirmisher.
I think the skirmisher ability needs to be replaced with something else, maybe giving the skirmisher one more move once after moving into a ZOC (only once per turn). Or simply remove skirmisher and give those units +1 melee damage and 1 extra move.
Try some Multiplayer Scenarios / Campaigns
Thanks for your detailed feedback Rhuvaen. I will think about your suggestions carefully and have already some gameplay changes in mind, once I have got some time left (school is horrible time consuming at the moment).
I think most of the bug you reported are already fixed. But I never implemented anything like village shopping - it's your fault if your feature does not work
(Same for the debug message (at least I and nobody I played with had one).
Thank you for offering your help! I might come back on that later
I think most of the bug you reported are already fixed. But I never implemented anything like village shopping - it's your fault if your feature does not work
(Same for the debug message (at least I and nobody I played with had one).Thank you for offering your help! I might come back on that later
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
Well, well, well... after watching/playing a few more games with a full complement of players with the latest version, my opinion of this has risen a lot! The gameplay is much improved over earlier versions. (Have you changed the scenario from 0.4a - 0.4Beta5 so much? I doubt it...)
I really think the new creeps make the game more strategic and provide a challenge for a much greater part of the game than before (although I still believe any def greater than 50 should be reduced). There's less of people with early advantages running away, the gains from the beer,poison and player killing have been toned down nicely. Great!
I also like the new map with side-passages.
I really love the "just another move" idea when you kill a creep! I've used this to move in and out of villages... it's just a shame that there are some moves that are impossible due to costing more than 1 mp.
We discovered what the "bug" was with the extra upgrade dialogues that never do anything: the host will get the dialogues for all AI sides (either started as AI in my game, or due to dropout)! If there was a way to check for AI control, maybe AI upgrades could be automated instead of these dialogues - they slow things down and are confusing when you don't actually see the unit to be upgraded!
EDIT: it would also be great to have an option of dropping out each time you're about to re-spawn. Sometimes a player can't go on due to RL, sometimes his hero is hopeless, and it's not such a good idea to keep dragging on that character either as host or ai-controlled.
There was also one other bug where I slew an Elemental but didn't get the reward because it had moved off its starting spot. That was very disappointing, since it was now dead and there was no other way of gaining that reward!
I still think there are balance issues:
- new attacks are too cheap
- +3 moves for the poison should be reduced to +2
- there are still a lot of differences in starting heroes, for instance the horseman is ridiculously powerful while the shaman is extremely poor (and anything with 4 mp is also crippled - the price of moves should depend on how many moves you got)
All in all the balance now seems to be a matter of fine-tuning, the scenario is definitely maturing.
It'd be interesting to get early weapons back (short bow, spear - that type of thing) to tune your hero and give poor starting heroes a chance. Maybe the weapon available would depend on the last slain creep - so that you can pick up their weapons (if they have any), if you want. I'd only allow that once, and then maybe replace the first existing melee or ranged attack (if any) with that weapon (maybe make this choice conditional on the new weapon dealing more damage than the existing).
Since most players start this scenario up with default settings (70% xp, 100 gold) which aren't really useful it'd be great to set an XP modifier to the heroes directly with an effect to raise it to something like 150% and set the gold to a minimal value. I wouldn't be opposed to having 20 gold to spend initially without killing a creep (have a "free" upgrade dialogue in the first turn).
One more thing: this scenario really lends itself to playing without fog because you can see the other heroes and their fate. But then, the AI moves terribly slow. I really think that proportional creep spawn and randomly switching creeps to guardian_ai and back would help!
I really think the new creeps make the game more strategic and provide a challenge for a much greater part of the game than before (although I still believe any def greater than 50 should be reduced). There's less of people with early advantages running away, the gains from the beer,poison and player killing have been toned down nicely. Great!
I also like the new map with side-passages.
I really love the "just another move" idea when you kill a creep! I've used this to move in and out of villages... it's just a shame that there are some moves that are impossible due to costing more than 1 mp.
We discovered what the "bug" was with the extra upgrade dialogues that never do anything: the host will get the dialogues for all AI sides (either started as AI in my game, or due to dropout)! If there was a way to check for AI control, maybe AI upgrades could be automated instead of these dialogues - they slow things down and are confusing when you don't actually see the unit to be upgraded!
EDIT: it would also be great to have an option of dropping out each time you're about to re-spawn. Sometimes a player can't go on due to RL, sometimes his hero is hopeless, and it's not such a good idea to keep dragging on that character either as host or ai-controlled.
There was also one other bug where I slew an Elemental but didn't get the reward because it had moved off its starting spot. That was very disappointing, since it was now dead and there was no other way of gaining that reward!
I still think there are balance issues:
- new attacks are too cheap
- +3 moves for the poison should be reduced to +2
- there are still a lot of differences in starting heroes, for instance the horseman is ridiculously powerful while the shaman is extremely poor (and anything with 4 mp is also crippled - the price of moves should depend on how many moves you got)
All in all the balance now seems to be a matter of fine-tuning, the scenario is definitely maturing.
It'd be interesting to get early weapons back (short bow, spear - that type of thing) to tune your hero and give poor starting heroes a chance. Maybe the weapon available would depend on the last slain creep - so that you can pick up their weapons (if they have any), if you want
. I'd only allow that once, and then maybe replace the first existing melee or ranged attack (if any) with that weapon (maybe make this choice conditional on the new weapon dealing more damage than the existing).Since most players start this scenario up with default settings (70% xp, 100 gold) which aren't really useful it'd be great to set an XP modifier to the heroes directly with an effect to raise it to something like 150% and set the gold to a minimal value. I wouldn't be opposed to having 20 gold to spend initially without killing a creep (have a "free" upgrade dialogue in the first turn).
One more thing: this scenario really lends itself to playing without fog because you can see the other heroes and their fate
. But then, the AI moves terribly slow. I really think that proportional creep spawn and randomly switching creeps to guardian_ai and back would help!Try some Multiplayer Scenarios / Campaigns
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PingPangQui
- Posts: 267
- Joined: July 18th, 2006, 11:52 am
Hi Baufo,
I don't want to say much about the design of the new Dwarvish Treasure (as always, sth. one likes and sth. one misses ).
However, killing all the six den monsters doesn't unstone the treasure keepers anymore. I and others played through it twice. First we did not play with default settings, thus I thought that was the problem, but it obviously wasn't.
I noticed that killing the elemental pierce didn't give the reward, at least the reward message didn't pop up. In both games this monster was killed in defense by someone. So maybe that was the reason why it didn't pop up. However I think I killed another monster of the den on defense, too and got the message (I'm not sure though). Could it be that the comp (for some reasons) thinks that the elemental pierce still lives although it died? Maybe some mistake in the WML-code of the elemental pierce description or in the scenario.cfg ("den-monster killing event")?
Edit: Save game deleted due to fixed version.
I don't want to say much about the design of the new Dwarvish Treasure (as always, sth. one likes and sth. one misses
).However, killing all the six den monsters doesn't unstone the treasure keepers anymore. I and others played through it twice. First we did not play with default settings, thus I thought that was the problem, but it obviously wasn't.
I noticed that killing the elemental pierce didn't give the reward, at least the reward message didn't pop up. In both games this monster was killed in defense by someone. So maybe that was the reason why it didn't pop up. However I think I killed another monster of the den on defense, too and got the message (I'm not sure though). Could it be that the comp (for some reasons) thinks that the elemental pierce still lives although it died? Maybe some mistake in the WML-code of the elemental pierce description or in the scenario.cfg ("den-monster killing event")?
Edit: Save game deleted due to fixed version.
Last edited by PingPangQui on December 6th, 2006, 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Clan Antagonist.
"Larry the Cow was a bit frustrated at the current state of Linux distributions (...) until he tried Gentoo Linux" - Free Software for free people.
"Larry the Cow was a bit frustrated at the current state of Linux distributions (...) until he tried Gentoo Linux" - Free Software for free people.
Thanks for the great feedback. I have not got much time right now so just the pierce elemental thing: it's a type in the scenario file, it's waiting for a "piere elemental" to die. I think you should be able to fix it yourself but I will of course upload a corrected version soon. This does also explain why the dragons did not unstone: if no event is fired the game things there are only 5 elementals dead so it waits for the last one.
I will write about the other things later.
I will write about the other things later.
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
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PingPangQui
- Posts: 267
- Joined: July 18th, 2006, 11:52 am
Thanks for the hint Baufo - it was really just a missing "c". So here the fixed version (I hope). I'm gona test it and give an OK if it works.
- Attachments
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Dwarvish_Treasure_scenario.cfg- fixed version
- (32.14 KiB) Downloaded 173 times
The Clan Antagonist.
"Larry the Cow was a bit frustrated at the current state of Linux distributions (...) until he tried Gentoo Linux" - Free Software for free people.
"Larry the Cow was a bit frustrated at the current state of Linux distributions (...) until he tried Gentoo Linux" - Free Software for free people.
Ok, here is what I think about your ideas, comments, suggestions:
The upgrade dialog for the AI is not good, true. Pitty I don't know how to check if a side is controlled by AI. It's not on the top of my priority list but I will definitely try to fix that.
On the other hand side adjusting the amount of creeps to the number of players is quite on the top of my list. I have also already thought about it and will add this feature.
I agree that these 70% defense creeps are annoying. But somehow I feel that it would fit better in their personality if I would insteed reduce their hp. I don't mind the rats to be small-foot though - I will probably do that.
Playing without fog: You know that there is a "skip AI moves" button, don't you?
No more weapons: bad true. I am currently thinking about a system that allows me to add them again (preferably without being dropped by creeps).
In general I don't like the scenario just as it plays now. It should not be about killing lots of weak creeps like it is now but killing very few strong creeps.
Also I am missing additional, more complex gameplay elements. At the moment there is just one strategie to follow: kill everything and upgrade.
I want more features! The problem is that I don't know what kind of features. Giving you possibilities to summon demons that take damage insteed of youself or taming yourself a pet dragon? Enable you to speak "spells"? It's just boring how it is now.
The upgrade dialog for the AI is not good, true. Pitty I don't know how to check if a side is controlled by AI. It's not on the top of my priority list but I will definitely try to fix that.
On the other hand side adjusting the amount of creeps to the number of players is quite on the top of my list. I have also already thought about it and will add this feature.
I agree that these 70% defense creeps are annoying. But somehow I feel that it would fit better in their personality if I would insteed reduce their hp. I don't mind the rats to be small-foot though - I will probably do that.
Playing without fog: You know that there is a "skip AI moves" button, don't you?
No more weapons: bad true. I am currently thinking about a system that allows me to add them again (preferably without being dropped by creeps).
In general I don't like the scenario just as it plays now. It should not be about killing lots of weak creeps like it is now but killing very few strong creeps.
Also I am missing additional, more complex gameplay elements. At the moment there is just one strategie to follow: kill everything and upgrade.
I want more features! The problem is that I don't know what kind of features. Giving you possibilities to summon demons that take damage insteed of youself or taming yourself a pet dragon? Enable you to speak "spells"? It's just boring how it is now.
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
You can tell it is the AI turn using the event "ai turn". However, this method only works on the localhost, so it would cause OOS in MP unless you think of a clever workaround.Baufo wrote:Pitty I don't know how to check if a side is controlled by AI.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."
Thank you very much! Who needs a workaround? Since this problem is only concerning the host it should not cause OOS in the way I want to use it. The other clients would think the host has got the dialog and done nothing while the host does not even see the dialog. I think this should work, I have not tested it in practise yet however.Sapient wrote:You can tell it is the AI turn using the event "ai turn". However, this method only works on the localhost, so it would cause OOS in MP unless you think of a clever workaround.Baufo wrote:Pitty I don't know how to check if a side is controlled by AI.
What do you think about giving you the possibility to customize your hero more: Let you chosoe traits and his occupation (e.g.: Warrior, Priest, Necromancer, Dragon Tamer, Alchemist, ...). Each group could have their own bonuses (resitances bonuses, ...), abilities (buying pet drakes, ...) or letting you choose extra weapons to start with that are characteristical for their group. Items that can be found could have slightly different bonuses for the different groups.
Not all character types would be available for all units (e.g. a necromancer can't become a priest).
What do you think?
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
Here are the types I have in mind: Tell me if their names sound silly and what you think about them. Of course the value of their abilties might vary for balancement reasons. Feel free to suggest more abilties and types.
Necromancer
Weapons available: drain melee and ranged, magic ranged;
Special abilities: summon a demon that takes the damage the the hero should receive. Summoning costs gold.
Dragon Tamer
Weapons: pierce melee+ranged;
Abilities: Gets a free dragon that will respawn after a few turns. What ever the dragon kills will give the xp to the hero.
Warrior
Weapons: impact+blade+pierce melee, pierce ranged;
Abilities: +20% armor against pierce, impact and blade; +2 melee damage; +10 hp;
Alchemist
Weapons: poison/slow;
Abilities: heals himself every turn 20% of his max health (because he can brew healing potions); Maybe something else cool if someone has a good idea.
Shot Firer (Dicitonary for German: "Sprengmeister")
Weapons: explosive (from DotG but a far stronger version that will probably damage the user not so much.);
Necromancer
Weapons available: drain melee and ranged, magic ranged;
Special abilities: summon a demon that takes the damage the the hero should receive. Summoning costs gold.
Dragon Tamer
Weapons: pierce melee+ranged;
Abilities: Gets a free dragon that will respawn after a few turns. What ever the dragon kills will give the xp to the hero.
Warrior
Weapons: impact+blade+pierce melee, pierce ranged;
Abilities: +20% armor against pierce, impact and blade; +2 melee damage; +10 hp;
Alchemist
Weapons: poison/slow;
Abilities: heals himself every turn 20% of his max health (because he can brew healing potions); Maybe something else cool if someone has a good idea.
Shot Firer (Dicitonary for German: "Sprengmeister")
Weapons: explosive (from DotG but a far stronger version that will probably damage the user not so much.);
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde