First Strike for Pikeman?

[quartex]

I wanted to revive an old idea, which was to give pikeman some ability to allow them to attack first, especially against mounted units, based on pikes and spears being so useful against horses. There was an idea of having pikemen get a free attack when an enemy enters their zone of control, but this seems to have been rejected as too complex, and it violates the Wesnoth rule that on your turn, moving your units next to an enemy unit won't cause them to recieve damage.

But another ability for the pikemen we also suggested "first strike". one interpretation was that pikemen would do all their attacks before the enemy did any. Miyo suggested recently that pikeman should strike first (and then i suppose the attacks would alternate back and forth). of course two units that had first strike would just fight normally. Doing all your attacks first is of course much more powerful that just being able to hit first and then alternating. Doing all your attacks before recieving any would probably be broken.

We talked about having "First Strike" and "First Shoot" for melee and ranged attacks (since I don't think the ability should affect both types of attacks at once), such abilities could be used sparingly for other units besides pikemen. Is there any interest in actually making this ability available to units? Do the pikemen need it? Similar to the Berserker, it seems to me that it would be useful when trying to kill weakened opponents, becuase getting the firts strike could make all the difference.

[turin]

IMHO, the pikemen need it. They need to be more interesting, and this will make the game more fun.

I can't think of any other units right now that need it, though. Maybe the berserker, i'm not completely sure.

[fmunoz]

IIRC common agreement was to make it attack 1st when defending (orcer swapped from normal attacks) not all attacks before the other units (too powerfull)
It only needs coding.. but it takes time and effort help us to have it soon sending a patch to implement it.

[AT]

I thought we already agreed that the Pikeman and Halberder would get first strike..... Its just a matter of doing it eventually.

[quartex]

Thanks, it dropped off my radar screen. Glad it's on the to do list. I was worried we'd had a lot of discussion and then nothing happened.

Although the ability should be designed so that other units besides Pikemen/halbadiers could someday have it. What would you call a first strike ability that only occurs when you are being attacks? Readiness? First defense? Fortify?

I just think that while only applying to melee attacks and only when the unit is defending makes sense for pikeman, but should we generalize it for other units. While we're coding this ability, does it make sense to create others first strike type for other conditions. Such as:
offensive melee attacks
defensive ranged attacks
offensive ranged attacks

[Dave]

I think we've had enough talking about this, time for some doing: I've implemented this feature, assigned it to Spearman, Pikeman, and Halberdier, and committed it to CVS.

If this ability turns out to be fairly powerful, we will consider toning down its attack from 7-3 -> 6-3.

The ability's name is 'firststrike' and is a 'weapon special'. This means it can be assigned per-weapon and thus you could give it to a melee or ranged weapon.

David

[Sangel]

Excellent. I'm not sure the Spearman should get it, but otherwise, I'm glad it's in there.

[quartex]

Thanks dave. I didn't realize it was so quick to code. It's nice that it can be assigned to any weapon. But no matter what weapon it only applies to defense right? Would an similar offensive ability be useful, or does it overlap similar offensive abilities like berserk, or sharpshooter. I suppose offensively it becomes a lot for powerful, since this is just defense, theoretically an enemy could avoid it by not attacking the pikemen. If it was an offensive ability you could lay waste to enemy troops.

[Sangel]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that all "First Strike" does is allow the defender to attack first instead of the attacker - the combat proceeds as normal otherwise. It doesn't allow the defender to take all his or her attacks before the attacker goes.

Thus, given the current implementation it wouldn't make sense for it to operate on attacking.

[Dave]

Yes, 'first strike' means the unit always strikes first -- on offense or defense. Thus 'first strike' offensively would be redundant, since that's what happens anyway.

David

[Bander]

lets see it happen

[quartex]

Oh, my mistake. Thanks for the clarification Dave.

[Boucman]

actually, first strike in offense could make some sense...

what happens in a fight between first strike units ?

[miyo]

Attacker attacks first -> first strike offence... that is the way Wesnoth work now. Check: start campaign, attack some enemy unit, you attack first.

With 'first strike' implemented units with first-strike get the first strike when they are defending.

- Miyo

[miyo]

If game would be changed so that both units attack same time, then first-strike could make difference when attacking. This might create interesting effects like attacker and defender both getting killed.

- Miyo