Elvish Illusionist - replacement for the Rebel mage

[Gamabunta]

Read EP's Mage Guide. Mages are for weakening the enemy or for getting 90%+ chance of killing a wounded unit. They are not for frontline defense.

[irrevenant]

I consider this topic resolved and I'm going to add it to the FPI. Unless you want this for something other than mainline I'll lock the thread after a page or so.

What exactly about it do you consider should be added to the FPI list? Replacing the mage in the Rebels faction? Adding an illusionist unit to mainline? The idea of an illusionist ability that adds to defence (except against Intelligent foes)? Something else?

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm not clear what aspect of this post you're considering for listing as an FPI.

Gamabunta, there are magi in both the Loyalist and Rebel factions for historical reasons (largely explained in the HttT campaign). The existing faction composition makes sense in the context of Wesnoth history and there's no need to remove the mage from either faction to make it consistent with the storyline. (It probably would have been appropriate for the "Classic" MP era, but unfortunately that appears to have been removed).

[zookeeper]

Gamabunta, there are magi in both the Loyalist and Rebel factions for historical reasons (largely explained in the HttT campaign). The existing faction composition makes sense in the context of Wesnoth history and there's no need to remove the mage from either faction to make it consistent with the storyline.

The faction composition doesn't make sense in the context of at least HttT. Where are my rebel horsemen, dwarves and thieves? Where are the loyalist ogres?

[Gamabunta]

Exactly my thought, zookeeper.

To me mages were added simply as "band-aid" reaction to undead, especially against ghosts.

[Jetrel]

Exactly my thought, zookeeper.

To me mages were added simply as "band-aid" reaction to undead, especially against ghosts.

Actually, no - the mages have always been in there, and actually, up until recently (er... 0.6/.7/.8 or so), the horsemen were in the rebel faction as well. I think the thieves were, too, though I might be confusing that with the old loyalists.

That said, it does irk me in terms of world-construction characteristics that the elves can't fight ghosts with their own magic, but ... I gave up on trying to fix that aspect of wesnoth a long time ago.


(P.S. - I like the screenname; filler sucks, don't it?).

[Noyga]

IMHO These unit have at least two balance problems :
- Too much strikes for a race that can get dextrous ... This makes the dextrous units too much powerful compared to the non dextrous units.
- A more minor RIPLIB problem is the loss of accuracy when leveling. By loosing a strike, it loose some chance to hit %.

Moreover, these units have no chance to go to mainline since it doesn't have decent images and animations yet.

About mages with elves, i'd say it makes sense, they are often associated together in the fantasy litterature.
And unlike the mages, althrough they are elves, IMHO these unit looks strange in the wood elves faction. It's not something you would except in such faction.

[Gamabunta]

Actually, no - the mages have always been in there, and actually, up until recently (er... 0.6/.7/.8 or so), the horsemen were in the rebel faction as well. I think the thieves were, too, though I might be confusing that with the old loyalists.

Why not get rid of the last human? It would be the logical conclusion.

That said, it does irk me in terms of world-construction characteristics that the elves can't fight ghosts with their own magic, but ... I gave up on trying to fix that aspect of wesnoth a long time ago.

(P.S. - I like the screenname; filler sucks, don't it?).

Yup. I wanted to spare some brain cells, so I stopped watching it a long time ago.

IMHO These unit have at least two balance problems :
- Too much strikes for a race that can get dextrous ... This makes the dextrous units too much powerful compared to the non dextrous units.
- A more minor RIPLIB problem is the loss of accuracy when leveling. By loosing a strike, it loose some chance to hit %.

Moreover, these units have no chance to go to mainline since it doesn't have decent images and animations yet.

About mages with elves, i'd say it makes sense, they are often associated together in the fantasy litterature.
And unlike the mages, althrough they are elves, IMHO these unit looks strange in the wood elves faction. It's not something you would except in such faction.

All very fine concerns...

1. That is one of the unique characteristics of this unit, and also the reason why it has such low max damage. The player has the choice of recruiting this unit and having only a 36% chance of getting a dextrous juggernaut, or recruiting something with a more predictable offense. If this is unacceptable to the MP community, then the illusionist can always be excluded from dextrous (with a corresponding damage tweak). The argument would be that being dextrous doesn't do anything to the magical power of each *fly. In any case I don't want to have 6 strikes or less, because I want to have that "swarm of magical flaming insects" feel to it.
2. Losing 1 strike out of 8 isn't a big deal. Besides, he gets double damage.
3. I'm not expecting this to go in any campaign anytime soon. It is merely a suggestion and a base from which artists can build on.
4. The fantasy literature of Wesnoth doesn't strongly support that association (it doesn't for the Knalgan Alliance as well, but let's ignore that for now).
5. I guess you can think of illusionists as strange social outcasts - Rebel rebels, if you will - that are still loyal to their race. They have learnt magic at an early age, and have grown so fond of it that they practice incessantly. Their illusions and fireflies are outgrowths of their youthful playfulness - Illusions stemming from Ambush-style camouflage and fireflies from their fascination of nature. In their adulthood, they have applied these powers towards defending themselves and their people.

[khamul]

Isn't the actual problem that the Mage also appears in the Loyalist recruit list? That does seem a little unintuitive: is there any other unit that appears in multiple MP factions?

Any reason why you couldn't make your illusionist a human that has thrown his lot in with the Rebels. That would solve Noy's movetype problem, and also make his life easier by meaning that he wouldn't have to balance one unit for multiple factions at the same time.

Also works better for WoW: elves seem to use cold magic, not fire magic.

[zookeeper]

Isn't the actual problem that the Mage also appears in the Loyalist recruit list? That does seem a little unintuitive: is there any other unit that appears in multiple MP factions?

I don't see why it would be a problem at all. In fact, I wouldn't mind more units be shared between factions (there just aren't many suitable options since the factions still revolve around races).

[khamul]

Isn't the actual problem that the Mage also appears in the Loyalist recruit list? That does seem a little unintuitive: is there any other unit that appears in multiple MP factions?

I don't see why it would be a problem at all. In fact, I wouldn't mind more units be shared between factions (there just aren't many suitable options since the factions still revolve around races).

I agree that having multiple units shared between multiple factions is fine: although it would make any changes in balance a lot more complicated.

Having only ONE unit shared between two factions is confusing: and as mentioned earlier, HttT doesn't effectively explain it. I mean, it's not a huge issue, and a human rebel illusionist isn't necessarily the ideal solution.

But it is an area where some kind of improvement is possible.

[Kel]

I should also point out that having to wait through 8 strikes is probably kind of annoying, especially if it's on a unit that's going to be attacking a lot.

[jb]

As Noy stated above, we worked on a "replacement" unit for the elven mage. We tested it for hours in serious MP, had sketch arwork, and even a loose storyline fitting the unit into the wesnoth world. The idea got gernearlly positive feedback, but after weeks of development the idea didn't materialize.

The point of the story is that is VERY hard to get an idea into mainline. Even if the idea is good. Ironically, I'm not at all bitter about the failure. I'm actually reassured that there are enough safeguards in place so that every hair-brained idea that comes along isn't thrown into the mix.

"Illusionist" ability idea does not appeal to me at all.

[JW]

Here's an idea:

Just change the name and the art.

You'll have to explain why an elven mage has smallfoot, but that's got to be easier to do than to create and balance an entirely new unit.

Oh, and while you're at it, you don't have to copy the White Mage line over since the Rebels already have the Undead pwning Wose.

[zookeeper]

Here's an idea:

Just change the name and the art.

You'll have to explain why an elven mage has smallfoot, but that's got to be easier to do than to create and balance an entirely new unit.

Sounds horrible, quite frankly. Identical units just with different names and art sound like confusing at best. Not to mention that it just wouldn't make any sense to have an obviously human mage (hey, it'd be the same unit) pretending to be an elf, and to have separate mage and sorceress unit lines.

...and here's the best idea yet (even though I'm not the first one to suggest it): leave it as it is.

[Thrawn]

or have an elvish herbalist-> levels to-->loremaster or dryad

I've learned my lesson with proposing new elvish units:
1. The system now works (inertia)
2. Too many elves already (wood/dark/high/sihde...)

I like the idea, but not the ability....