Forum restructuring - discussion

Tux2B · Post by **Tux2B** » March 5th, 2006, 1:36 pm

Great

Trouble is that it is an open forum, so there won't only be insightful comments there.
Also, by doing so, there will be two different threads about the same subject... isn't it a little messy?

Post by **Darth Fool** » March 5th, 2006, 2:29 pm

Tux2B wrote:Great Trouble is that it is an open forum, so there won't only be insightful comments there.
Also, by doing so, there will be two different threads about the same subject... isn't it a little messy?

yes, but from the developers stand point, it is less messy for the development of the artwork. As for it being an open forum meaning that there will be less insightful comments as well, that is precisely the point of moving them out of the artwork development forum.

Disto · Post by **Disto** » March 5th, 2006, 5:44 pm

Darth Fool wrote:
Tux2B wrote:Great Trouble is that it is an open forum, so there won't only be insightful comments there.
Also, by doing so, there will be two different threads about the same subject... isn't it a little messy?
yes, but from the developers stand point, it is less messy for the development of the artwork. As for it being an open forum meaning that there will be less insightful comments as well, that is precisely the point of moving them out of the artwork development forum.

I can't hold this back anymore but.... pppppppppppppphhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Oh well I guess it doesn't matter as I don't do art for Wesnoth anymore.

JW · Post by JW » March 5th, 2006, 7:51 pm

I have the POWER!!!

...to post in the open art section.

Regardless, I think the split is a good idea. Art is pretty personal and lots of people talking out their butts about something you've poured your heart, energy, and time into with little consideration or perspective can be quite aggrivating.

Shout out to mah art peeps in tha hizzouse. Neo and Jet get some special <3 for the crap they've had to put up with lately.[/ghetto][/He-Man]

-> What i might be working on · Post by **Eleazar** » March 6th, 2006, 1:42 am

irrevenant wrote:
Tux2B wrote:In the art thread, you have been asking whether we could have more "insightful" comments. Personally, that's what I've been trying to do, but on the art dev, there is no such thing as "how to post here", or "what we expect you to say in order to have constructive criticism", that would have guided us.
That is a really good point.

How about it, Eleazar? Do you think you could create such a document? I think it would be a lot of help...

I don't have any easy answers. Constructively "critisizing" art is easy for nobody. I've had art teachers that couldn't do it well.
While we're not dealing with anything esoteric like abstract fine art, still the average person while trying to analyze art (especially out of context) will over-think things and come up with a response usually different than they would have seeing the art in context.

I think the off-the-cuff response of the "average" player to art in game is valuable. I don't think the average user has the "visual bandwidth" to see a unit or terrain hex, imagine that art in context of the game, see how well it works, and then communicate it.

Mith · Post by **Mith** » March 6th, 2006, 12:38 pm

Eleazar wrote:It was abrupt, but what would a warning have accomplished?
Nearly everyone _believes_ they have a valuble opinion on art stuff, and few people can be convinced that they don't.

True, and not only they have all but valuable opinions on art, they also express their opinion in a very nonconstructive way.
"His arm is a littlel off" Yeah right. Which arm? where? in what sense?
I fully understand why the art devs want to get rid of these completely useless comments.

Eleazar wrote:We're still trying to find the best way to structure the forums, but before this change there was nearly as much "noise" in Neo's recent art threads as there every was in the unregulated days.

[off topic]
Perhaps the new trolls are really pretty controversial? If you'd ask me, I prefer the old trolls for their rocky look. The new trolls don't look half as hard as the old ones.
[/off topic]

Eleazar wrote:If we find that any user has especially valuable things to say he can be added to the "art contributors."

This split-up does definitely not help finding new art contributors.
Several expectations/facts
1) "Art Contribution" is filled with junk comment. Not many users offer constructive critics.
2) I expect that experienced contributors will not bother much helping newbs to improve. It is not very rewarding, most users don't understand the suggestions. (Jetryl complains so every now and then.)

New potential contributors are 'scared away' by 1.
Seeing that the devs don't take care for art contributions that are not exactly perfect but promising is not very ... encouraging.

I think this split-up results in a drying flow of new contributors, which would be a bad thing.

JW · Post by JW » March 7th, 2006, 7:54 am

Here's an idea for restructuring:

General Comments, Reviews & Praise
Create a forum for general game reviews, anecdotes, praise, and thanks. Having a forum explicitly for such posts would keep them from cluttering other areas and would also encourage, instead of discourage, such positive feedback. People seem willing enough as it is to provide their negative feedback.

db0 · Post by **db0** » March 7th, 2006, 9:07 am

Isn't this what the Users' forum is all about?

-> What i might be working on · Post by **Eleazar** » March 7th, 2006, 1:15 pm

Mith wrote:Perhaps the new trolls are really pretty controversial? If you'd ask me...

This amount of noise is about what i'd except for a change like this. There hadn't been much remarkable art to post on recently, Neo first grabs attention with his freak-trolls, then brings out the real ones, then people get more worked up because they can't post in the thread = much hubub about trolls. I gurantee that once people play with the new ones a while, the controversy die.

Mith wrote:This split-up does definitely not help finding new art contributors.
Several expectations/facts
1) "Art Contribution" is filled with junk comment. Not many users offer constructive critics.
2) I expect that experienced contributors will not bother much helping newbs to improve. It is not very rewarding, most users don't understand the suggestions. (Jetryl complains so every now and then.)

New potential contributors are 'scared away' by 1.
Seeing that the devs don't take care for art contributions that are not exactly perfect but promising is not very ... encouraging.

I think this split-up results in a drying flow of new contributors, which would be a bad thing.

While the forum split make things better for "official" art contributors, i don't think it makes things radically worse in the open forum. Expectations 1 & 2 were true before the forum split. It may be a little worse now, but somehow new contributors came through the old system. IMO they will continue to do so, especially as Wesnoth becomes more well known.

There is nothing that prevents experienced artists from giving advice on the open forums if they want to. This has not changed. We've only prevented the inexperienced/non-artists from directly giving advice to the experienced.

Disto · Post by **Disto** » March 7th, 2006, 5:45 pm

Great Inexperienced, well I'm off for the mo. be back tomorrow.

Post by **irrevenant** » March 8th, 2006, 10:31 am

Eleazar wrote:
irrevenant wrote: That is a really good point.
How about it, Eleazar? Do you think you could create such a document? I think it would be a lot of help...
I don't have any easy answers. Constructively "criticizing" art is easy for nobody. I've had art teachers that couldn't do it well. While we're not dealing with anything esoteric like abstract fine art, still the average person while trying to analyze art (especially out of context) will over-think things and come up with a response usually different than they would have seeing the art in context. I think the off-the-cuff response of the "average" player to art in game is valuable. I don't think the average user has the "visual bandwidth" to see a unit or terrain hex, imagine that art in context of the game, see how well it works, and then communicate it.

You've implied something interesting here: that the average player will be better able to comment on art if the artist posts it in context. eg. unit art against a terrain background, an attack icon as part of a screenshot excerpt etc.

You've also implied that it's actually better for non-artists to talk in vague impressions. If I've interpretted you correctly, this is a keen insight; I suspect most non-artists tend to assume you want detailed information. This is certainly a mistake I've made in the past.

I've cobbled together a draft document, here. I've includes both your insights above.

I'm sure I'm far from the best person to create such a document but I hope that now there's something for people to bounce off, wiser people than I will chip in, tell me where I've gone wrong and offer insight.

Disto · Post by **Disto** » March 8th, 2006, 5:56 pm

irrevenant wrote:
Eleazar wrote: I don't have any easy answers. Constructively "criticizing" art is easy for nobody. I've had art teachers that couldn't do it well. While we're not dealing with anything esoteric like abstract fine art, still the average person while trying to analyze art (especially out of context) will over-think things and come up with a response usually different than they would have seeing the art in context.

That is very true.

Post by **Noy** » March 8th, 2006, 6:33 pm

Eleazar wrote:
Mith wrote:Perhaps the new trolls are really pretty controversial? If you'd ask me...
This amount of noise is about what i'd except for a change like this. There hadn't been much remarkable art to post on recently, Neo first grabs attention with his freak-trolls, then brings out the real ones, then people get more worked up because they can't post in the thread = much hubub about trolls. I gurantee that once people play with the new ones a while, the controversy die.

Mith wrote:This split-up does definitely not help finding new art contributors.
Several expectations/facts
1) "Art Contribution" is filled with junk comment. Not many users offer constructive critics.
2) I expect that experienced contributors will not bother much helping newbs to improve. It is not very rewarding, most users don't understand the suggestions. (Jetryl complains so every now and then.)

New potential contributors are 'scared away' by 1.
Seeing that the devs don't take care for art contributions that are not exactly perfect but promising is not very ... encouraging.

I think this split-up results in a drying flow of new contributors, which would be a bad thing.
While the forum split make things better for "official" art contributors, i don't think it makes things radically worse in the open forum. Expectations 1 & 2 were true before the forum split. It may be a little worse now, but somehow new contributors came through the old system. IMO they will continue to do so, especially as Wesnoth becomes more well known.

There is nothing that prevents experienced artists from giving advice on the open forums if they want to. This has not changed. We've only prevented the inexperienced/non-artists from directly giving advice to the experienced.

I agree with Eleazar's post. I don't think its a bad thing that average users can't post on these threads. I think the devs all make constructive criticisms about issues, and much of the previous "bad" criticism came from people that really had no buisness in there. I think Mith is completely wrong when he says that this change would affect the number of artists. I think in some way his post symbolizes the type of discussion we are trying to prevent from occurring. Mith, do you feel that your lack of posting is going is making you not want to contribute art? Do you even contribute art to wesnoth? (edit, I see that you have made some preliminary team coloring... my apologies, but I don't think its at the level that someone like neo contributes.)

If someone actually thinks they could do better, then they are completely welcome to, and mostly have. Most artists I notice come up through making their own factions/units, or quickly self identify themselves that they can do art, and are brought into the system early on. I can't see how people who are generally excited about contributing would not do so because they didn't get a chance to criticize others.

Tux2B · Post by **Tux2B** » March 8th, 2006, 8:23 pm

I think in some way his post symbolizes the type of discussion we are trying to prevent from occurring.

Why? I mean, why would you prevent someone to express his opinion? I don't have the feeling Mith has been unrespectful.

Post by **Noy** » March 8th, 2006, 10:38 pm

Tux, please don't pull a quote out of context and try to make an issue out of it. This WHOLE thread is about preventing a certain type of person from expressing their opinions in some places. If people want to criticize something in the users forum, go ahead, however I don't think its appropriate or useful in the development foru,

My point was a comparison about how Mith was to point out his criticism about the troll and the forum. Saying "No I don't like this troll" and offering no substitute is simliar to coming in here and saying "no I don't like this forum change" and offering no solution except the status quo. In both cases the status quo is unacceptable and must be changed. In addition at the time I thought Mith had not contributed any art at all, and was complaining about his inability to comment about art. However I later discovered that he has done some work for Wesnoth, though it is not substantial. My argument there was that I think what we are trying to avoid is people who have little or no experience in the area or the game, coming in and being able to criticize developers for something they don't like. Even in the development forum, contributors have not been happy for their work or ideas to be subject to criticism to the extent that it has.

I think the ability for high level contributers to be able to post their work for addition without open criticism is a good thing. It keeps them happy and involved in the project. I think that the very real side of letting people criticize their work will be the experienced people leaving, to a great detriment to the project. I don't equate the ability to complain about other people's work as being helpful for recruiting new artists, because thats not what new artists are looking for. They aren't looking for a place to argue, rather, they are looking for a place to contribute.