Concerning traits

[drachefly]

We all know that there have been a lot of mediocre trait suggestions. This is not a recent phenomenon. Part of it is of course that people get ideas. But part of it is that four traits just isn't enough.

Why?

Outside of elves, there are four traits (three for trolls). You get two traits on each unit. There are only 6 distinct trait combinations. (four times three divided by 2 for order). For trolls, there are only three distinct trait combinations (one leaving out strong, one leaving out resilient, one leaving out quick)

This is really few. You can end up with units that are basically duplicate. This feels wrong.


With five traits, there would be ten combinations -- we're looking at a nearly halved likelihood of seeing clones. With six traits, there are fifteen possibilities and duplication becomes an occasional freak accident.

So, it would be really nice to get ONE more trait. A good one. And of course if we could find 2 new traits, that would be fabulous, but I'm not holding out hope. More than that and you'd take a while to find a unit with even one desired trait, if you needed one. So, 5 or 6 is ideal.

Why do I not hold much hope for finding 2 new traits, though? The traits are restricted to changing basically what has already been changed -- HP, attacks, upkeep, movement points, XP to level. Of those, HP, XP, movement, and upkeep are just numbers. The first three already have traits, it's over. For upkeep, we could always try to rebalance Loyal... but after much effort that didn't happen.

That leaves attacks, or expanding the capabilities of traits in general...
Unless traits are capable of executing scripted events, then the possibilities are endless... but it is going to be harder to maintain KISS.

Thoughts?

(Don't just put your trait ideas here. Make a new thread for that)

[Elvish_Pillager]

In the past there's been much discussion on racial traits, but Dextrous is the only one that's ever made it.

Another good trait would be very good, you'd think we'd have decided on one already. There've been a bunch of decent ideas, but they all led to arguing and never decisions.

Hmm. I still think Dextrous should reduce the XP requirement by 2 or 5% to make up for its weakness compared to Strong.

[Garion]

Ah, but there are two simple sets of alterable numbers that no trait seems to touch. Resistances and defense.

I'm not going to get into what we could do with that, because that's a discussion of what specific traits should be implemented. But if you're looking for a place to change a unit without needing to run a script, that's what's left.

That or attack reps, which would be really strong compared to the attack damage traits.

You're absolutely right, though, one to two more would be excellent.

[Cuyo Quiz]

Ah, but there are two simple sets of alterable numbers that no trait seems to touch. Resistances and defense.

AFAIK, messing with percentages is not very much liked around here. No significant/tangible change can be done to resistances/defenses without affecting the gameplay in a most probably undesired manner.

One more general trait would be nice, and maybe a racial trait for every species, but hell it is going to take some time to find worthy ones.

[drachefly]

If traits could change resistances or defense or movement costs, I'm sure there would be traits around those concepts. At present, they cannot.


I'm still not sure that a weakened version of Loyal would not be a good idea to bring back. There are all sorts of reasonably simple ways Loyal could be weakened while still making it worthwhile.
In Campaign.
On the other hand, Loyal is kind of useless in most MP games.

[JW]

On the other hand, Loyal is kind of useless in most MP games.

I disagree.

[deonjo]

On the other hand, Loyal is kind of useless in most MP games.

I disagree.

I agree with JW's disagreement . it could mean everything in a long game, AND a short game.

[turin]

The only somewhat interesting trait ideas I've seen are:


Quick heal (for lack of a better name) : Dwarvish racial trait. Gains +2 HP every time heals, including rest healing. So, max heal is 14, rest heal+2 + curing+2. (Two instances of healing are considered to be equivalent to one curing).


Brutal: Orcish racial trait. +2 damage, -5% HP, or somesuch. Needs rebalancing, obviously. Perhaps instead of adding a set +2 dmg, it should add +20% damage...

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Three possibilities here:

1. One way to re-adjust loyal would be to make it cause the unit to have the maintenance of a unit one level lower. This may have been suggested before, but I have not seen it in the time I have been on this forum. My apologies if it has.

2. We have a trait that reduces the XP needed to level up. How about one that causes the unit to gain 1 more XP during a battle which results in no kills. (This would not effect kill XP) The effect would be different from the other and might result in using this unit a bit differently.

3. Blessed (or Lucky if you think that sounds too religious)--The unit has a 50% change of surviving a blow that would normally kill it, reducing it to 1 HP instead. The trait would only work if the unit's HP before that blow was already above 1. Could be adjusted to make it automatic, I suppose, since any unit should have a good chance of killing it (and it might still die in that same combat anyways from a later blow.)

[turin]

Three possibilities here:

1. One way to re-adjust loyal would be to make it cause the unit to have the maintenance of a unit one level lower. This may have been suggested before, but I have not seen it in the time I have been on this forum. My apologies if it has.

That would probably still be a bit unbalanced. And yes, it has been suggested many times before. But it's worth consideration.

2. We have a trait that reduces the XP needed to level up. How about one that causes the unit to gain 1 more XP during a battle which results in no kills. (This would not effect kill XP) The effect would be different from the other and might result in using this unit a bit differently.

That might be interesting... don't think it's currently possible, though.

3. Blessed (or Lucky if you think that sounds too religious)--The unit has a 50% change of surviving a blow that would normally kill it, reducing it to 1 HP instead. The trait would only work if the unit's HP before that blow was already above 1. Could be adjusted to make it automatic, I suppose, since any unit should have a good chance of killing it (and it might still die in that same combat anyways from a later blow.)

I don't like traits that are only useful if the unit about to die.

[Assasin]

It is really hard to come up with balanced traits. there need to be more options in the trait limitations to make better, badder, traits, IMHO.

[JW]

I'd rather not see any traits that have penalties other traits already have. Right now this is only hp from Quick. I think the troll trait of +2 dmg per strike +20% xp to level was a good suggestion (found in another thread). Since Trolls can't be smart, they may as well be stupid, right?

Also, I think Loyal should be added as a double-trait.

That dwarf healing also sounds interesting.

I'm also thinking that there could be a trait that gives you -1 dmg per attack, but it would have to give you some big bonus in return. I can't figure what it would be though.

Actually, an interesting possibility I just thought of would be something called Genius which would give -1 dmg to all attacks, and would cut xp to level by 50% (applied before or after intelligent would grant 40% xp to level (X*0.8*0.5)). This would be interesting for my Shifters, but outside of that I don't think it would be very good.

Just thoughts.

[Zhukov]

Brainstorm time.*

2. We have a trait that reduces the XP needed to level up. How about one that causes the unit to gain 1 more XP during a battle which results in no kills. (This would not effect kill XP) The effect would be different from the other and might result in using this unit a bit differently.

I think this would go well as a race-trait for humans. Humans (in the real world at least) are notable for their ability to adapt to circumstances. This would reflect that somewhat.

Quick heal (for lack of a better name) : Dwarvish racial trait. Gains +2 HP every time heals, including rest healing. So, max heal is 14, rest heal+2 + curing+2. (Two instances of healing are considered to be equivalent to one curing).

When a unit doesn't move or fight for a turn it get +2hp rest. So how about Dwarves with this trait healing 4hp instead of 2 when resting (instead of Turin's suggestion). Also call it "recuperate" (different from regenerate).

Brutal: Orcish racial trait. +2 damage, -5% HP, or somesuch. Needs rebalancing, obviously. Perhaps instead of adding a set +2 dmg, it should add +20% damage...

Problem: 20% usually comes to only 1 extra damage. It would be nowhere near as good as the standard strong. I would suggest +2 damage on melee, but units that have this don't get another trait.

One thing that that nobody seems to have mentioned is this: a trait to modify the price. Call it 'patriotic' perhaps, or 'conscript' -10% on price? Of course, you wouldn't know that you had saved money until after you purchase the unit. And you would still have to pay upkeep.

*That means "there may be large amounts of stupidity in this post."

[JW]

Problem: 20% usually comes to only 1 extra damage. It would be nowhere near as good as the standard strong. I would suggest +2 damage on melee, but units that have this don't get another trait.

Actually, Orcish Grunts would +2, Warriors +2, Warlords +3.

Archers would get +1, +1, +2.

Assassins would get +2, +2.

I think a straight +2 would be better. I mean, a 16-4 Warlord is overdoing it just a tad doncha think?

[Zhukov]

You are taking into account the following?
Values obtained from percentages are rounded toward the original number. The grunt has base damage 9.
20% of 9 is 1.8
That means total damage of 10.8
10.8 rounded toward the original value of 9 is 10.
Thus 10 total damage, an increase of only 1.

That is why I said a simple +2 would be better.

I think the idea of +2dmg, +20% XP for a troll trait would be interesting and balanced.