The Steppe Orcs

[JW]

lol, didnt mean to ruin your other thread, but I stil lthink it needs an attack for simple conceptual reasons.

[Zhukov]

What do you mean by conceptual reasons?
(I know what the word "conceptual" means, but what do you mean?)

EDIT: Hang on, do you mean for the same reasons that AMLA exists...?

[Xan]

Some of the other name suggestested for this faction are way too arcane and baroque for barbarian orcs. (such as "Icewind Rime Castellan") I think simpler names are a better idea.

Uh... that name was for the frost elves...

But I am going to change the prefix 'Icewind' to something less... common.

[ozymandias]

Hmm, let me chip in with a few suggestions. First, I'll second the criticism of the Barrier line. If they don't attack, steadfast will be active all the time, so you could just double the resistances and drop steadfast - although I'd strongly suggest giving them some kind of shieldbash at least - a unit completely unable to attack is just weird. And while I like your art for them, two shields *do* look pretty strange, and I have strong doubts as to their efficacy in battle. I think one bigger, "two-handed" shield would be more useful - but better yet would be a short jabbing spear, like a Zulu Assegai.

Apart from the barrier, you might consider lowering their defense in villages to 50% (and 60% for steppeelusive). That would emphasize their nomadic nature and force them to fight in a fluid style...

[Eleazar]

So people don't think that the common "IceWind" prefix will be a problem?

Names are the easiest things to change. Since a faction has a high chance of never being finished, i wouldn't worry about it untill you have 2 nearly finished factions with the same names.

I'd recommend "IceStorm Whatever" for the L3s

Some of the other name suggestested for this faction are way too arcane and baroque for barbarian orcs. (such as "Icewind Rime Castellan") I think simpler names are a better idea.

Lets not forget if the "barrier" can never attack, he has little chance of advancing.

[Temuchin Khan]

Also, I have been scanning all the recent Ideas posts and, well...it appears that "frost factions" are getting a little too common. Now, in addition to my orcs and these frost elves, a guy called Foxwolf has decided to start proposing 'frost humans.' :?

We'll just have to make an Arctic Era!

But it gets worse, one of his units is called...wait for it...Icewind Brute.

Am I just being possessive about my idea or is this getting a little out of hand?

My own view is, if people like the prefix "Icewind", why not use it in various factions? After all, it isn't a race designation or a faction designation.

[Doc Paterson]

I realise this means an Ulf can finish it off without risk. But many units are vulnerable to Ulfs, apart from the obvious Dark Adept prettymuch anything with a weak melee attack is potential prey.

It's not about many units being vulnerable to an Ulf kill, it's about the Ulf taking no damage whatsoever, and getting the kill (also, it's about the fact that your unit won't be able to perform its blocking-role at all against one of the major factions in the game). If you want it to be an effective unit that won't be mobbed-at-will for free experience, I do think that you should try to program the "retaliate-on-defense" feature. Otherwise, you'd have to raise the HP and resistances to ungodly levels. Raising the blade resistance to 30 would at least put it at the defensive level of the Dwarven Guardsman, pre-1.1.

That being said, it's going to be very very difficult to create a purely defensive unit that will actually be useful in multiplayer, particularly 1v1 (that will really be able to pay back its cost). Most of the scenarios that people imagine for such units downplay the fact that these games are mostly about economy (village advantage). I'd guess that it will take a lot of experimenting and revision, but of course, I wish you the best of luck.

[Zhukov]

Ha. Looks like the poor little bloke is really copping some flak.

The criticisms seem to be:
a) A unit with no attack is useless. And would be easy XP for an Ulf.
b) Lack of an attack will make leveling up difficult.
d) Up the resistance instead of having Steadfast
c) Art wise, he should get a single massive shield rather then two big ones.

Alright, into the fray!

a) Someone is currently trying to code a WML workaround for an attack that is only used in retaliation. He seems to be having some success.
NEWSFLASH: In fact I have just been told that, barring unexpected complications, he will have it running in a few hours.
If this becomes possible then the Barrier line will get a 'shieldbash' impact attack. Perhaps about 4-4. This means he would not be easy prey for Ulfs. But he would not be able to attack offensively.

This unit is defensive. It is supposed to be a Level 1 with the durability of a level 2 or 3. However it is not supposed to operate on it's own. The uses I imagine for it are protecting wounded or weak units, holding villages or key strongpoints and shoring up a crumbling battle line. It may also do nicely against swarming.
Talking from personal experience, I can think of several situations where one of these would have been very handy.
For example: you move a unit forward to attack. The attack is successful and the enemy unit dies. However your attacker is heavily damaged, leaving him (or her) highly vulnerable to attack on your opponents turn. If you don't wish to let your wounded unit die, usually the best you can do is try and close up the line by putting another unit between the wounded one and the enemy. However you may not have a unit with moves left. And if you do have a unit available, using it in this way often creates a salient or 'bulge' that can be attacked from many angles.
But if you were to have a unit that could survive being in just such a salient without dying or taking crippling damage...
You see my point...?

But this is all speculation based on nothing more then theoretical situations and a bunch of half-finished stats. The truth of the matter will come with playtesting. If the Barrier turns out to be useless I will balance it or even <sob> scrap it altogether. However, until playtesting, I am going to be absolutely stubborn in regards to the Barrier.

b) I have thought of this. (:razz:) If you look at the stats you will notice the Barrier has a tiny XP requirement of 10. ( I may even lower it further). The low XP balancing out the fact that the Barrier must get all XP from being attacked. On the other hand, what if he never gets attacked? Well, he would be serving his purpose admirably if he was detering attackers.

c) I think this has been mentioned before. Yes you are entirely right. The only real reason for having Steadfast was to emphasise the defensive role of the unit. I have no quams about removing steadfast and increasing resistances if it makes for a better and more balanced unit.

d) Well obviously this is only cosmetic. It doesn't actually effect gameplay. The main reason for my drawing and describing the unit as having twin shields rather then a massive tower shield was that there are already defensive units that sport large shields, namely the Merman Hoplite and Dwarvish Guardsman. I don't see the presence of two shields as any great problem.

Okay, did I miss anything?

As a sidenote, I think I will lower the cost of the Barrier. To 14 perhaps.

[ambezua]

You could also consider frost men, you know, guys in parkas but simmilar to the original.

[Ranger M]

see another thread it is already being considered.

[Zhukov]

No.
They are orcs, and will remain so. Period.
Besides, someone else is already doing 'frost men.' (I have a suspicion that he was 'inspired' by this thread).

PS. Sorry if I seem a bit short, no offense intended.
However this is something on which I simply will not be shifted.
(Hmmm, I need a :stubborn: smiley.)

EDIT: Ah, someone already answered. Thanks Ranger.

[Maeglin Dubh]

Don't worry, Zhukov, that was just some new person attempting to divert four pages of wisdom with a bright idea. Happens all the time. We understand your frustration.

[Doc Paterson]

b) I have thought of this. (:razz:) If you look at the stats you will notice the Barrier has a tiny XP requirement of 10. ( I may even lower it further).

Do bear in mind that standard MP settings use 70% exp, making that 10 a 7. Half of all Barriers would also have the Intelligent trait, so half of them would require a meager 5 exp. to level.

On a related note, your justification for the under-poweredness of the L2 Bladesman makes sense, but only at the expense of overpowering the Bladesman. The fact that a unit with that much HP will be able to power up and (most importantly) completely refill its HP with so little experience will most definitely make it unbalanced. In a standard MP game, non-intelligent Bladesmen will need a mere 17 exp. to level. The other half will need 12. I'm pretty positive that playtesting would show this to be far too extreme an advantage, especially considering the high damage/kill potential of the unit.

[Zhukov]

*tips hat to Doc Paterson*

It was a happy day for the Steppe Orcs when you clicked their thread.

Do bear in mind that standard MP settings use 70% exp, making that 10 a 7. Half of all Barriers would also have the Intelligent trait, so half of them would require a meager 5 exp. to level.

Alright, how about 14 XP on the barrier. That means an intelligent on 70% comes to about 8XP. Thus to level up it would have to survive eight fights against units of equal level All those battles would be defensive, meaning the enemy would chose when+where those fights took place. A non-intelligent Barrier would need 10XP. I think that sounds fair. You agree?

Also the "Retaliate Only" ability has been coded to a working level. Now all I need is for the fellow who coded it to tell me how to install it.

...about Warrior -> Bladesman balancing issues.

Umm, before I answer that one, did you mean to say...

"...but only at the expense of overpowering the Warrior."

and

"...in a standard MP game, non-intelligent Warrior will need a mere 17 exp. to..."

I think you may have got the Warrior and Bladesman names mixed up.
If you did, then it makes sense. However if you didn't make a mistake I must ask you too clarify just what you mean, because it's got me baffled.

EDIT: Meaglin Dubh. Dismissing people as "just some new person" is not my idea of polite. Especially considering that you (and myself) have only been here for about a month longer then ambezua.

[Maeglin Dubh]

EDIT: Meaglin Dubh. Dismissing people as "just some new person" is not my idea of polite. Especially considering that you (and myself) have only been here for about a month longer then ambezua.

Wasn't trying to be impolite. Trying to downplay the intrusion. And getting tired of the influx. Besides, I rarely look at post counts or time joined; I look at content. I can only hope ambueza is contributing as much as you are in a month. I'd give more specific examples of what I've been seeing in post count/tenure not resulting in anything useful, but that would probably offend people. Since I've probably gone overboard in my explanation, allow me to retreat and attempt to force this rapier back between my teeth.

On the main point, the faction looks good, but even if the Barrier line fights only in a retaliatory sense, there's still a chance of scoring a kill...