Anti-Gryphon thread
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Doc Paterson
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Just about everything you said here describes a lack of understanding the reality of well-played gryphons. Vague, hypothetical situations that don't account much for movement, range or village spacing. You should go on the server and try to augment your ideas with more actual 1v1 play-experience.unsung wrote:idon't see the problem- 4 griffons- okay, now let sassume he getes say, 6 villages at 3gpv. 6x3=18
18 gold per turn= 1 unit.
I that starting period, he ha sno men to defend his vilages, so just steal them back, swarm him, and if he doesn' sit still, kill his leader.
I also don't think you should count on your opponent defending their villages with snow men.
(Though the Snowman/ Gryphon strategy can be powerful in certain matchups.)
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because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses. -Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
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Mythological
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Where exactly can 1v1 replays be found ? (In which forum and thread and under what name?). I am not able to find them.Doc Paterson wrote:
It may also benefit your understanding to go to the "1v1 Replays" thread, and view the recent gryphon matches posted by Soliton. Note the recruitment choices of his opponent in the only match that he lost.
Sorry for the off topic post...
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but it is a little bit different in practice.
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Dragonking
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Look here.Mythological wrote:Where exactly can 1v1 replays be found ? (In which forum and thread and under what name?). I am not able to find them.Doc Paterson wrote:
It may also benefit your understanding to go to the "1v1 Replays" thread, and view the recent gryphon matches posted by Soliton. Note the recruitment choices of his opponent in the only match that he lost.
Sorry for the off topic post...
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The major problem I have with the argument that the gryphs are overpowered is that its primarily because of a single map, specifically blitz. In most 2v2 maps, (which in all honesty I play the most of) the Gryph isn't overpowered. I think its a fairly balanced unit. Where the gryph becomes "over powered" is when it is able to attack and flee with impunity. In blitz, a player can make lightning attacks and retreat just as fast because of the presence of the water which is inaccessable to most of an opponent's units.
Because blitz forces players to split their forces into two, (and even three) parts, it allows a player to isolate units, kill them piecemeal, and retreat before a counter attack can form. You instantly can make major unit disparities, and retreat just as fast so not to threaten its loss. In other maps, gryphs have a more difficult time being able to isolate units, especially on 2v2s. I'm not too sure about how it works on Charge, but I suspect it might suffer similar problems to a lesser extent than blitz. Since there is group separation (but to a lesser extent) similar problems exist. We had similar problems here when the saurian had an unbalanced movetype that could do similar things. If you look at divide and conquer, (a map that forces you to separate your forces into three groups) but separated areas by an impassable cave wall, the gryph was by no means overpowering. In blitz several people have complained about drakes being overpowered. I'm starting to think maybe we shouldn't think of the map as being balanced at all.
We've dropped the movement on the gryph by one point. I think its the only thing we could agree on that would work. I'm not particularly happy about it because its going to reduce a unit that was balanced in most situations because of a single type of scenario. But since its unbalanced in that situation and people want a change, I've decided to go with it.
In all honesty, I think part of this problem could have been solved by better map design. Making large impassable terrain features that separate forces gives the advantage to gryph, plain and simple. Its akin to making a map full of mountains, and asking why the knalgans are overpowered. Simply Blitz and lagoon might not be the best maps to make decisions about. We'll see what happens with 1.1.
Because blitz forces players to split their forces into two, (and even three) parts, it allows a player to isolate units, kill them piecemeal, and retreat before a counter attack can form. You instantly can make major unit disparities, and retreat just as fast so not to threaten its loss. In other maps, gryphs have a more difficult time being able to isolate units, especially on 2v2s. I'm not too sure about how it works on Charge, but I suspect it might suffer similar problems to a lesser extent than blitz. Since there is group separation (but to a lesser extent) similar problems exist. We had similar problems here when the saurian had an unbalanced movetype that could do similar things. If you look at divide and conquer, (a map that forces you to separate your forces into three groups) but separated areas by an impassable cave wall, the gryph was by no means overpowering. In blitz several people have complained about drakes being overpowered. I'm starting to think maybe we shouldn't think of the map as being balanced at all.
We've dropped the movement on the gryph by one point. I think its the only thing we could agree on that would work. I'm not particularly happy about it because its going to reduce a unit that was balanced in most situations because of a single type of scenario. But since its unbalanced in that situation and people want a change, I've decided to go with it.
In all honesty, I think part of this problem could have been solved by better map design. Making large impassable terrain features that separate forces gives the advantage to gryph, plain and simple. Its akin to making a map full of mountains, and asking why the knalgans are overpowered. Simply Blitz and lagoon might not be the best maps to make decisions about. We'll see what happens with 1.1.
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Doc Paterson
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Noy wrote: In blitz several people have complained about drakes being overpowered. I'm starting to think maybe we shouldn't think of the map as being balanced at all.
Noy wrote:In all honesty, I think part of this problem could have been solved by better map design.
Blitz is no child of mine; I've only sent it to Reform School- a few times.
(In other words, the tinkering continues)
I'd tend to agree that the map is problematic, and that it makes gryphons into Gods (I've never thought that Drakes were overpowered on the sand-less modern version though, because water units chop them up) but it would be very difficult to modify it much more without it ceasing to be "Blitz." (Which is not to say that I won't be trying.
)That being said, I do think that the gryphon's extreme movement combined with its durability caused minor problems on the majority of the 1v1 maps in use, particularly in regards to scouting and village theft (generally being able to survive for the one extra turn needed for a slightly slower unit to arrive and replace it on a stolen village; gryph then takes another out-of range village to repeat the process or retreats, heals, and returns to finish off a wounded unit....) It's difficult for me to convey how very small I think this problem was; suffice it to say, I don't think it was a big deal, but the problem was just large enough for it to warrant the very slight modification that was applied.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses. -Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses. -Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
What about undead vs. gryphons riders?
Ghost
1. Cold ranged attack(albeit weak-ish)
2. 7 moves over all terrains but water
3. 60% resistance to the gryphon rider's only attack.
4. Even terrain defenses (but only half the hit points
)
Are ghosts a good choice as a gryphon rider countermeasure for undead players? At least as part of a trapping group.
I've done well with them as such. Of course, I'm new and haven't played nearly enough to know if this is accurate. If this is way off base, I would very much like to hear some alternatives from more experienced undead players on how they handle gryphon riders.
'Play faction X instead.' is not an alternative at this time , at least not in multiplayer.
PS - One thing I have not read yet concerning gryphon riders is this:
They FORCE the opponent to react to them. If you don't you lose. Having gryphon riders automatically gives the dwarves the initiative, which usually equates to victory in warfare.
Ghost
1. Cold ranged attack(albeit weak-ish)
2. 7 moves over all terrains but water
3. 60% resistance to the gryphon rider's only attack.
4. Even terrain defenses (but only half the hit points
)Are ghosts a good choice as a gryphon rider countermeasure for undead players? At least as part of a trapping group.
I've done well with them as such. Of course, I'm new and haven't played nearly enough to know if this is accurate. If this is way off base, I would very much like to hear some alternatives from more experienced undead players on how they handle gryphon riders.
'Play faction X instead.' is not an alternative at this time
, at least not in multiplayer.PS - One thing I have not read yet concerning gryphon riders is this:
They FORCE the opponent to react to them. If you don't you lose. Having gryphon riders automatically gives the dwarves the initiative, which usually equates to victory in warfare.
I have not much experience of well-played gryphon-tactics, because most of people don't use it. (I've really played only once against that strategy and tha t was my own map on the early, not very balanced, stage) I have tried it more times myself. (and always won though not against the best players.)
For undead I think that ghosts die relatively easy against gryphons as they have little HP and too weak attack. But they are your best chance of getting behind gryphons. For actual killing of them I would rather use skeletons. They have the same (maybe? I don't remember, so I'm not sure) resistance that ghost have, but do a lot more damage. And Dark adepts are always effective for finishing blows. Trapping is the problem, and ghosts have only 7 MP. But as bats don't have ZoC the ghosts remain the only possibility.
For Drakes I would use Saurian Skirmishers to trap the Gryphs (Not necessarily attack, just surround) and then wait for reinforcements. And then use any available high damage units to finish the devils quickly before the other gryphons come to help. (But then again it wouldn't be very well-played if you let your opponent to trap your Gryphies with skirmishers without achieving something more valuabel with such a move)
EDIT:(Was this your specific anti-gryphon method for Drakes Paterson?)
For undead I think that ghosts die relatively easy against gryphons as they have little HP and too weak attack. But they are your best chance of getting behind gryphons. For actual killing of them I would rather use skeletons. They have the same (maybe? I don't remember, so I'm not sure) resistance that ghost have, but do a lot more damage. And Dark adepts are always effective for finishing blows. Trapping is the problem, and ghosts have only 7 MP. But as bats don't have ZoC the ghosts remain the only possibility.
For Drakes I would use Saurian Skirmishers to trap the Gryphs (Not necessarily attack, just surround) and then wait for reinforcements. And then use any available high damage units to finish the devils quickly before the other gryphons come to help. (But then again it wouldn't be very well-played if you let your opponent to trap your Gryphies with skirmishers without achieving something more valuabel with such a move)
EDIT:(Was this your specific anti-gryphon method for Drakes Paterson?)
Last edited by deserter on January 6th, 2006, 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Anti-Gryphon thread
Obviously Gryphons have been overly debated already and I can see why their movement is being reduced in version 1.1. But personally I'd like to see their defense on open type terrain reduced from 50% to 40%.
I think 60% on mountains would still be adequate and perhaps 50% on hills.
What do people think about that?
I think 60% on mountains would still be adequate and perhaps 50% on hills.
What do people think about that?
Re: Anti-Gryphon thread
Well... They are very big creatures aren't they?calhoun wrote:Obviously Gryphons have been overly debated already and I can see why their movement is being reduced in version 1.1. But personally I'd like to see their defense on open type terrain reduced from 50% to 40%.
I think 60% on mountains would still be adequate and perhaps 50% on hills.
What do people think about that?
So maybe it could be easy to hit them, but they are also fast which makes it harder. This would weaken them a lot, that's for sure. I'm not neither for nor against it.
I think they are alright at the moment, until proven otherwise. I would like to see how much does the change in movement points effect the gameplay/balance.
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Dragonking
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