Why haven't you made a campaign?

[Glowing Fish]

So, I've noticed a trend with Wesnoth. When I first played Wesnoth, in summer of 2004, there were 5 official campaigns, and quite a few user supplied ones, including at least one (Liberty) that was as high quality as the main campaigns.

And, with all the growth that Wesnoth has had...we have lost a campaign, with only four official campaigns. We have had lots of starts on campaigns, but many of them were false starts, and some of them were interesting ideas, that while they had interesting expansions on ideas, but weren't actually keeping in the mainstream of Wesnoth. For example, "Burning Sands" is a GREAT role playing game campaign, but is not Turn Based Strategy campaign the way "The Rise of Wesnoth" was.

So, I don't know if everyone would accept everything I just said, but if we do take it to be true, I am going to post a little poll about why people have not possibly contributed to a campaign.

[yeahthatguy]

I've once started a campaign, but gave myself too much work ( should've know better! ). The plot wasn't that great either, which didn't help the situation.

I started another one recently, this time making sure the plot was good and everything, but have decided to put it off for awhile, as that one was also very demanding.

Currently I'm content with simply improving my graphic skills.

[turin]

Other: I've made three, working on a fourth.

The reason there are no new official campaigns is simple: inertia. It is, AFAICT, impossible (and not just figuratively) for a campaign to become official.

There are more decent campaigns today then there were a year ago. There might not be proportionally more, though.

One disturbing trend I've noticed is that every single new campaign gets treated as if it is actually good - I haven't played every single campaign, but it is my experience that most campaigns are, well, crap. So, I don't know if campaigns are actually getting better or not, but my guess would be people's standards are going down...

[Eleazar]

I'd like to make a campaign. I've worked out the basic story & characters, but i find myself busy doing other things in my Wesnothian life. For my level of technicalness, WML isn't inviting, but i think i could make it work for me if i put in the time.

So, WML does deter me, as does the pain that balancing apparently is. But i'll probably get around to it, eventually, especially if i can get some of my friends addicted to Wesnoth, who could help me with a campaign.


I agree with Turin that the quality of campaigns vary greatly, but on the other hand, most don't claim to be finished. I haven't played them all, but at least a few have the quality to become "official".

On the other hand, i don't see a compelling reason to bloat the download with all the good campaigns. Downloading from the campaign server is exceedingly easy. I do think the download should include an easy, short campaign, like South Guard (not yet complete). It would be helpful however if the best, complete user campaigns could be flagged somehow to promote the best.

[Assasin]

campaigns aren't easy for the average forum user. you must learn WML, and make new images if you are using new units. The plot is also difficult.

[JW]

I can work up a good plot if someone needs help there. I've basically given up coding aspirations (WML) for now but writing a storyline or making maps is something I could help someone with. It would be great if someone would help me with my Shifters idea, but I'm willing to help someone else who can program/code decently and is willing to take on a project.

[irrevenant]

I've selected "WML is scary" in the poll, but that's only part of the answer.

I think the main reason is that you have to be a real "renaissance man" to create a campaign. To create a quality campaign you really need to:
(a) Come up with a cool idea for a campaign
(b) Plot out the campaign
(c) Design the maps
(d) Write the WML
(e) Design and balance a few new units (the heroes, at least)
(f) Create the art and animations for the new units
(g) Balance the campaign
(h) Write the dialogue

There's at least 4-5 different skillsets you need to have to create a good campaign. That's a pretty imposing ask. It's amazing there's as many decent campaigns as there are...

[Yogibear]

Hmm, but not all of those abilities have to be concentrated in one person, right? Most of the time there is quite some people willing to support the campaign.

[scott]

I've selected "WML is scary" in the poll, but that's only part of the answer.

I think the main reason is that you have to be a real "renaissance man" to create a campaign. To create a quality campaign you really need to:
(a) Come up with a cool idea for a campaign
(b) Plot out the campaign
(c) Design the maps
(d) Write the WML
(e) Design and balance a few new units (the heroes, at least)
(f) Create the art and animations for the new units
(g) Balance the campaign
(h) Write the dialogue

There's at least 4-5 different skillsets you need to have to create a good campaign. That's a pretty imposing ask. It's amazing there's as many decent campaigns as there are...

I used to have an offer to help people with campaigns. Essentially the offer was to do (d) if the person did (a), (b), (c), and (h) up front. (f) and (e) are optional or can be done later. (g) is easy (mechanically) once the others are done.

I had one person take me up on the offer, but he didn't finish a-c,h up front. Two scenarios in he said, "I can't think up anything so I quit." Thus my effort was wasted and we were both frustrated. I think that actually happens to most people - good plot is hard to do, especially on the fly.

If someone actually pseudo-wrote an entire campaign + maps I would consider writing all of the WML for it, since that is very quick once you know it. However, I have other duties now such that I can't guarantee my offer is still valid.

Since "don't know WML" is a leading reason, I would think this would still be useful for many people.

[Thrawn]

The reason there are no new official campaigns is simple: inertia. It is, AFAICT, impossible (and not just figuratively) for a campaign to become official.

why? because it just can't happen, or nothing good enough...?

I'm working on one, but my grasp of WML is based on copying other people's campaigns, so I work really slowly. IMO the plotis good, and the few scenarios I've done have merit, but nothing near presentable:(

Part of the problem is purely plot-wise: I've had the basic plotin head for a while, and I've been playing around with variations for at least 4 years, but adapting it to wesnoth is hard, and I am a perfectionist in certain area's--mainly things I take seriously (not GIMP art for example:)) and I'm very self conscious about my work. Also, I'm trying to give background, because having a prolouge typed out is a load of work, but making it a playable scenario seems wrong somehow, and making a prequel campaign would be very tedious.

[turin]

why? because it just can't happen, or nothing good enough...?

Because it can't happen. The current 4 campaigns in mainline are not the best 4 campaigns. (They are in the top 10, but they're not the top 4.)

I'm working on one, but my grasp of WML is based on copying other people's campaigns, so I work really slowly. IMO the plotis good, and the few scenarios I've done have merit, but nothing near presentable:(

That's how I learned WML. (Granted, it was much simpler when I learned it.)

Part of the problem is purely plot-wise: I've had the basic plotin head for a while, and I've been playing around with variations for at least 4 years, but adapting it to wesnoth is hard, and I am a perfectionist in certain area's--mainly things I take seriously (not GIMP art for example:)) and I'm very self conscious about my work. Also, I'm trying to give background, because having a prolouge typed out is a load of work, but making it a playable scenario seems wrong somehow, and making a prequel campaign would be very tedious.

Yeah - it is my guess that most really good stories won't translate well to Wesnoth. Take LotR - a campaign based on the plot of destroying the ring would make no sense in Wesnoth.

The reason is, good stories are more RPGish than Wesnoth is.

[Ranger M]

In response to earlier posts, learning WML is not all that hard, I am in the middle of a campaign and before I started it I had never used WML before and up untill the point when I discovered that there was a wesnoth site (before My dad had just downloaded it using apt-get, or whatever it is) I had not looked at the tutorials, and I had already compleated six scenarios. This is becasue WML is:

1. easy to learn (even without the tutorials)
2. easy to use

Also if you don't know how to do something, just look at how someone else has done it, if neccisarry, copy and paste code, then adapt it to you're needs

[Disto]

Other:

I have, except no-one seems to play it so i've lost the drive to work on it, and then finish it. It's the only non-linear campaign i know.....

You'd think with 7000 downloads at least a few more people would of said they'd played it.

ps. Yes i know i'm permenantly whining.

[irrevenant]

I had one person take me up on the offer, but he didn't finish a-c,h up front. Two scenarios in he said, "I can't think up anything so I quit." Thus my effort was wasted and we were both frustrated. I think that actually happens to most people - good plot is hard to do, especially on the fly.

You've also just noted the opposite side to my point: It's difficult making a whole campaign by yourself, and it's also difficult to form and maintain a team to do the task.

Yeah - it is my guess that most really good stories won't translate well to Wesnoth. Take LotR - a campaign based on the plot of destroying the ring would make no sense in Wesnoth.

I'm not sure whether you mean Wesnoth the world, or Wesnoth the game.

If the former, you could file the serial numbers off and set it in a 'lost age' easily enough.

If the latter, you'd probably have to widen the scope of that last little bit (where it was just Sam, Frodo & Gollum) to encompass nearby battles*, but I don't see why playing the basic story wouldn't be enjoyable in Wesnoth.

Not to say that I think it's a good idea ripping off the plot of LoTR whole cloth, but I don't see why it couldn't be done.

The reason is, good stories are more RPGish than Wesnoth is.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. More character-focussed? This works fine in Wesnoth. HttT does a reasonable job of focussing on the characters, despite not being RPGish.

* Hmm, that's a cool idea for a scenario - do a 'split map' where the core party fights their way through an underground cave while the bulk of the army holds off the massive enemy force outside...

[qwhitmye]

At the moment I am enjoying playing what is already available. Which I might add is a ton

There is my reason

Later Days
Q