Elvish Cataphract Proposal

[Sangel]

Sorry, is Gladerider really a word (outside of fantasy literature)?

We've been pretty good about using real terms for units, and this would break that.

Cataphracts should be heavily armored, so that's probably out.

What kind of unit is an "Avenger", exactly? Or for that matter, a "Dwarf Lord"? Or any of the Undead units?

I'm sorry, but the naming of units is about appropriateness for the unit and common-sense appeal. It makes perfect sense for crack elven riders to be called "Gladeriders".

[Dave]

Nevertheless, I don't think the Gladerider really needs a charge attack. Increasing its damage a little and beefing up its range attack should do fine.

Agreed.

And if you want justification for lack of a lance, other than "because it upsets the game balance", you can also use "lance would be major hindrance to rapid travel through forests".

Not to mention that use of a lance would likely require the use of spurs, which is against the nature of the Elves.

David

[Darth Fool]

Well, despite the readings of my youth and my earlier asertion, I decided to google on this issue and came across this long, but good, article on shock tactics, saddles, and stirrups by a guy who does medieval style tournaments for a living:

http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/shock.shtml

to summarize:
Stirrups are not necessary for charging with a lance.
Saddles are not necessary to charge with a lance.
A good Saddle does, however help tremendously...
Stirrups help a little.
A bigger/stronger rider is more dangerous than a bigger horse.

So, I guess it is conceivable that elven riders could have a charge attack, but I still don't like it.

As for the name, I prefer glade-rider to cataphract since "cataphract" is all about armor that covers the rider and horses body.

[Boucman]

I always imagine elves as tall and thin...
not really effective for charging.

maybe a dwarf on a poney

[Eponymous-Archon]

Sorry, is Gladerider really a word (outside of fantasy literature)?

We've been pretty good about using real terms for units, and this would break that.

What kind of unit is an "Avenger", exactly? Or for that matter, a "Dwarf Lord"? Or any of the Undead units?

I'm sorry, but the naming of units is about appropriateness for the unit and common-sense appeal. It makes perfect sense for crack elven riders to be called "Gladeriders".

Well, as I said up above there, my point is the Gladerider isn't a "real" word. I see from google that it is used by various fantasy-type folk, but it doesn't appear in any of the on-line dictionaries I checked (including the OED) and I had never heard of it.

In contrast, the other units all have names that are either real words (even if they refer to un-real creatures, like ghosts) or have a decent pedigree (like Orc). (OK, Nightgaunt and Naga may be exceptions to this rule.)

It makes no sense, common or other, to me at all to use this term, since I have no idea what it means. "Those who ride through glades"? Is that supposed to sound impressive?

"Avenger" does not clearly lead to any one type of unit, I agree, but why not go with a more generic term for this unit, if we can't find a good horse-y one? Say, "Venturer" or "Explorer" or "Guard"? (BTW, a number of Elvish units have more generic names - are these units from early in the game's history?)

While we are on the subject, there are a couple of other names that should be changed, IMO:

1. Cavalry - not an individual, but a group
2. Direwolver - a new one, but ugly. Direwolf-Rider, if we must (or is that Dire Wolf-rider?)

[Dave]

Direwolver - a new one, but ugly. Direwolf-Rider, if we must (or is that Dire Wolf-rider?

I'm not even aware of this unit, but imho a third level wolf rider should be called a 'Hobgoblin'.

David

[miyo]

I'm not even aware of this unit, but imho a third level wolf rider should be called a 'Hobgoblin'.

It was in changelog which you approved.

- Miyo

[Sangel]

3rd Level units should never have a common or dull name. This is a fantasy game. These are fantasy units. They should have names which make sense for them to have. "Gladerider" is both Elvish in feel and appropriate for a 3rd Level scouting unit. It also rolls off the tongue easily, unlike "Direwolver". Since nobody else has mentioned a distaste for it, and many others have noted they like it, I respectfully submit that you are alone in disliking the term.


So, now that the graphic is finished, and nobody has lodged any objections to the stastistics I've proposed, is the Gladerider ready for inclusion?

[Eponymous-Archon]

3rd Level units should never have a common or dull name.

Well, you might be right about that, but it isn't a pattern that's been followed in the game: Lord, General, Avenger, Marshal, all are used for lvl-3 units. They are all common. Dull I leave to each person's own taste. See the very nice table at http://wesnoth.slack.it/units.cgi.

This is a fantasy game. These are fantasy units. They should have names which make sense for them to have. "Gladerider" is both Elvish in feel and appropriate for a 3rd Level scouting unit. It also rolls off the tongue easily, unlike "Direwolver".

I simple re-iterate my comment that this is not actually a real word, in contrast to all but 1 or 2 other unit names. I don't speak Elvish, so I'm not sure how much it sounds like that.

"Direwolver" is horrendous, I agree (and partly because it isn't real ). Hobgoblin it will be though, no? (Dave, Miyo?)

Since nobody else has mentioned a distaste for it, and many others have noted they like it, I respectfully submit that you are alone in disliking the term.

I certainly may be, but I'm pretty stubborn too, so I'd like to know if anyone else finds it less than ideal. Frankly, it's lack of legitimacy out side of a small fantasy-literature circle really does it for me. Something like "Elvish Cavalier" or "Elvish Advancer" would suit me better.

So, now that the graphic is finished, and nobody has lodged any objections to the stastistics I've proposed, is the Gladerider ready for inclusion?

Let me suggest for the description (which is good):
"Riding like the wind, Elvish Gladeriders breeze across the land to strike swiftly at their enemies. Equally skilled in bow and sword, they hit hard before melting away again to evade retribution."

There might not be forest around for them to melt into, so I made it more generic, and I avoided the repetition of "strike".

[Sangel]

How about this?

"Riding like the wind, Elvish Gladeriders breeze through the forests to strike swiftly at their foes. Equally skilled in both bow and sword, they hit hard before melting away to evade retribution."

I like keeping the mention of the forests to emphasise their elvishness. The other modifications you suggested are cool, though.

[Eponymous-Archon]

Sounds fine, maybe even "through forest and plains"?

I think you can leave out "both" just to keep it shorter, but no big deal.

[fmunoz]

The image is ok but I'm against 3rd level elven rider... Not all units should have level 3. If you feel that your Outriders are weak now (i dont think so) then you must wait to when you could get bonus for extra xp if a unit already has max level.

[Dave]

I'm not crash hot on 'gladerider', but I haven't heard any decent alternatives...

David

[Eponymous-Archon]

Well, why not keep the more adventurous quality of the name, and go with "Wind-Rider"?

[Sangel]

Windrider (or Wind-Rider) sounds fine to me.

And fmunoz, we had the discussion about the 3rd level component earlier on, and I was under the impression Dave didn't mind at all -

At this stage imo the improvement should mostly focus around a better ranged attack.

Which then led into bow animations for the Scout, etc. There's no inherent problem with a 3rd level Elvish Scout - the Orcs just got a Direwolf Rider, after all - so long as it's balanced.

I've been testing the proposed statistics in game at the moment, and the result seems to be a unit capable of causing grave harm (but not usually death) to Level 1 units, and significant wear on Level 2 units... but with a definite tendancy to get beaten up by any Level 3 unit which has both ranged and close-range attack. It's certainly not unbalancing.