Charge.

[Doc Paterson]

Which of the following best describes your thoughts on the map Charge?

And-

If you'd like, you can also post up an answer to this hypothetical question:

Suppose the author of Charge wanted it removed from the map pack. Would you be devastated? Would you be indifferent? Would you be happy?

(Don't worry, Charge-heads, this is not the "death of an ancient map" that I talked about in the "coming attractions.")

[Yogibear]

Hmm, i didn't vote since i had only a couple of games on that map. But i like it. Not too small, not too big. Many villages with strategical challenges, especially if you are playing with 100 gold. You need to find a good balance between splitting forces to get villages and going for a concentrated attack at some other point. The terrain seems well balanced to me.

As i said, i like it .

[Lindir The Green]

I like it, and used to only play on it, but after the ...10th time it sort of became boring.

I still play on it if I want a quick 1v1, though.

[telly]

Hmm, i didn't vote since i had only a couple of games on that map. But i like it. Not too small, not too big. Many villages with strategical challenges, especially if you are playing with 100 gold. You need to find a good balance between splitting forces to get villages and going for a concentrated attack at some other point. The terrain seems well balanced to me.

As i said, i like it :wink: .

Thats the problem, certain factions their mobility isn't limited by the hills and mountains so they can grab most of the villages and do a concentrated attack :).

I think more needs to be done to make the factions better all round so no matter what the map or terrain they have something they can do, rather than try to balance maps for all factions which seems to be close to impossible at the moment.

[Doc Paterson]

Thats the problem, certain factions their mobility isn't limited by the hills and mountains so they can grab most of the villages and do a concentrated attack .

I think more needs to be done to make the factions better all round so no matter what the map or terrain they have something they can do, rather than try to balance maps for all factions which seems to be close to impossible at the moment.

It's not impossible at all, but it is exceedingly difficult to do using (for the most part) only three different kinds of terrain. This, in my opinion, is the big problem with Charge; its "safeguards" against abusive strategies (the heavy terrain patches) completely break down when a player is using or facing Drakes, Knalgans, and to a very large extent, Northerners. You can see what was intended, but with the factions as they are today, it just operates very poorly.

Would it be possible to, with one set of changes, balance the map against Drakes, Knalgans, and Northerners? Absolutely. The problem is, the end result would barely be recogniseable as Charge. Cave could be placed in precise locations to nerf flyers. The number of mountains could be decreased. The spacing of the villages could be completely redone. Water and water-villages could be added to slow down Wolfriders and further nerf Drakes.

Do you see what I'm saying? A balancing solution does exist, but implementing it would be nearly equivalent to scrapping the map.

By the way, I'd still really like to get some thoughts on that "hypothetical question."

[Noy]

I basically agree with your points. I think one option might be to vary terrain in the four mountainous areas... maybe replacing it with either impassable valleys or, if that gives drakes too much of an advantage, shroud... as well as sprinkle a forest in there as well. That should remove some of the unbalanced features of it.

[Doc Paterson]

I basically agree with your points. I think one option might be to vary terrain in the four mountainous areas... maybe replacing it with either impassable valleys or, if that gives drakes too much of an advantage, shroud... as well as sprinkle a forest in there as well.

This is the best suggestion I've heard to date.

[Doc Paterson]

I've explored this suggestion of Noy's and found it to be very effective in regards to factional balance. Since I was making such an extreme change, I decided to finally just commit to fixing all of the things that I thought were bad about Charge.

A summary of the changes:

1. Drakes and Northerners have been "Charge-nerfed." The shroud-pits restrict their movement greatly on two of the most important regions of the map. Their movement will now be more similar to that of the Loyalists, Elves, and to some extent Undead, for whom the heavy terrain patches were a true barrier.
2. Elves have been ever-so-slightly powered up and Knalgans have been ever-so-slightly powered down, as some mountains have been replaced with forest.
3. River ford has replaced the old "brown grassland" terrain, completely. This will allow players to at least entertain the option of water units, and should add some fun factor to a map that was, in my opinion, becoming extremely stale. This doesn't make water units a major force per-se (as they can't really hold the villages), but it will fascilitate at least some degree of water-unit interaction (note that there are no water villages, but that the river ford runs perpendicular to many villages, allowing water units to strike at village-sitters from high-defense terrain. This may serve to further weaken Drakes in some situations, enabling pierce-weilding Mermen to join in the assault.)
4. For reasons pertaining to the 1st player advantage, 4 villages have been moved, though it was only a one-hex move in each case. Because player 1 can still (much of the time) take 3,12 and/or 1,14 before player 2 reaches them, player 2 retains the "extra village" to the right of their castle.

And now, the rebirth of Charge.

[Yogibear]

Cool! This looks really interesting, should be even more of a strategical challenge. Perfect job, Doc .

[Doc Paterson]

And here it is, for those of you who'd like to try it out before it's released.

http://mercury.walagata.com/w/paterson/Charge

[deserter]

This has nothing to do with the topic, but how can I add shroud to a map? I realize that i can do it by adding empty spaces in the text document but can i do it in the editor?

New charge looks nice.

[Doc Paterson]

This has nothing to do with the topic, but how can I add shroud to a map? I realize that i can do it by adding empty spaces in the text document but can i do it in the editor?

New charge looks nice.

The text-editor method is the only one that I know of.

[Nicolas]

no strategic game with this map

[Doc Paterson]

no strategic game with this map

I think that's the map of McDonald's you're looking at. We're talking about Charge.

[pigandforks]

as much as a like wesnoth i think that for one on one the game is still missing something. Most of the maps kind of lose out on the strategic elements, not all but many. i mean you still have to use the right units right time right terrain etc.