Wings of Valor 2.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Post Reply
Whiskeyjack
Posts: 476
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.2(Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Thanks again for the replies and the link re: morality and sorry that I took so long coming back to you.

I'll continue with your previous post, name, before I go to the newest. Some of this was written before the last update but I don't want to edit it all again (or I will never get this posted), so just ignore things that are already concluded.

Scenario 1: The Hunt:
Scenario 3: The Contention:
Scenario 4: Islands:
Scenario 5: The Three Sisters:
Scenario 7: Wesmere:
Scenario 12: Epilogue:
Language:
Dragons:
Timeline::
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
name
Posts: 429
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 3:32 am

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.2(Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name »

Whiskeyjack wrote: June 18th, 2020, 8:18 pm Some of this was written before the last update but I don't want to edit it all again (or I will never get this posted), so just ignore things that are already concluded.
Alrighty.

Scenario 3: The Contention:
Scenario 4: Islands:
Scenario 7: Wesmere:
Scenario 12: Epilogue:
Dragons:
Timeline::
Whiskeyjack
Posts: 476
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Whiskeyjack »

name wrote: June 20th, 2020, 3:20 amShe continues to blame the one subordinate in particular she already started blaming earlier. I find that in real life, people past a certain threshold of egotism, have a tendency to redirect all of their own failures of responsibility to someone(s) else. Since Vonel is her subordinate, he just has to take it to some extent, which makes this dynamic just the more convenient for Salennea. At the same time, I would say Vonel is not showing much strength of character and thereby plays his own smaller part in the pandemonium.
And yet again, I come to the problem I lamented before. Much of this makes sense with your extensive background information and explanations. But it is badly translated to what is actually seen in the campaign. Salennea doesn't come off as a deeply flawed, weak-minded character, but as a walking stereotype of the incompetent (royal) leader. You play this for laughs by doubling down with things like the directly preceding release of the messenger birds (oh, what a coincidence...), but in that act destroy any attempt at making this character believable. From which then arise all my criticisms. This is a problem because that character undermines the story you tell. If I don't believe your princess character, I don't believe the Wesmere events that are directly caused by her. NR works better here, because the campaign is more coherent in tone, more light-hearted in its storytelling, while you - in most cases - try to tell a serious (even dark) story, try to establish more complex characters (on the drakes side).
name wrote: June 20th, 2020, 3:20 amYet the contrast between the more zany and the more deep characters is part of the intended effect. As is an element of surprise; we certainly expect an elvish princess or a dwarfish clansman to be noble and wise.
Do we, though? Elves are presented as flawed and multifaceted at many points in Wesnoth and the only other princess we ever meet is a literal damsel in distresss...
And a similar thing goes for the dwarves, TRoW and SoF give plenty of examples there...
name wrote: June 20th, 2020, 3:20 amWhat is sorry about it though?
Ok, let me present my full position again here, though I think I implicitly touched this many times. We already have actual royalty for the humans and dwarves, which work perfectly well if you want to tell stories about princesses in Wesnoth (though for the dwarves you'd have to solve the up-to-now undecided problem of reproduction and gender fist :lol: ). We also have orcs - and now your new drakes - usually being led by single "strongest fighter" type leaders. Undead, almost by definition, are creations of a single mastermind and puppeteer. The Wesnoth elves are different in that regard as they are - again, on multiple occasions - presented as council-led and more free-flowing in their style of leadership, and while there seems to be some nobility, it certainly isn't mandatory for a leadership position. The elves are considerably more creative and less Tolkien-clonish* in that regard than most other race settings in Wesnoth up till now had to offer and present a platform to tell different kinds of stories. That is already reason enough in my eyes to stay clear of any kind of elvish royalty.
To add to that, any royalty even existing doesn't fit with anything we see of the elves anywhere in mainline, except for that episode in NR (which is, again, a campaign with a light-hearted, heavily stereotyped (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, when done well, mind you) story that in quite a lot of aspects should be taken with more caution for making it the "standard" of mainline - e.g., only mention of interracial children (in an optional ending no less), the immortal mages, the reclusive liches leading animals instead of undead, asf. Considering mainline is inconsistent in quite a few places and there are current efforts in the works to reduce said inconsistencies - treating stuff like the NR princess very carefully (or even better, ignoring its existence for the time being) sounds like a more reasonable approach to support said efforts.
And all of that was written when talking about the current status quo. As I pointed out, Elvish lore is currently undergoing active changes and Elvish princesses fit even worse there, especially for Wesmere. (At this point I might add that the vision of Wesmere you detailed in one of your posts also doesn't work well, the new race description - picked up on in many places across the new unit descriptions - goes in a very different direction!)



* I'm a big fan of Tolkien and his works, so don't take this as general criticism. But I think creating middle-earth clones in the twenty-first century is boring and uninspired - at least in that regard WoV is miles ahead of a lot of things mainline has to offer. (Unnecessary) Royalty for all the races is certainly a very medieval / Tolkien thing to do though...
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
name
Posts: 429
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 3:32 am

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name »

Whiskeyjack wrote: June 20th, 2020, 10:08 am NR works better here, because the campaign is more coherent in tone, more light-hearted in its storytelling, while you - in most cases - try to tell a serious (even dark) story, try to establish more complex characters (on the drakes side).
This might be where we have misunderstood each other. It is fine having very consistent levity as with NR or very consistent seriousness as with DiD. But there is also value in mixing the two in various ways and to various extents. As such, the intent with WoV is to mix dark and light heartedness.

Still, I understand that the execution was not to your liking and it is noted.
Whiskeyjack wrote: June 20th, 2020, 10:08 am We already have actual royalty for the humans and dwarves,
Not royalty, Salennea is nobility. The titles Prince and Princess can refer to either royalty or nobility.
Whiskeyjack wrote: June 20th, 2020, 10:08 am We also have orcs - and now your new drakes - usually being led by single "strongest fighter" type leaders. Undead, almost by definition, are creations of a single mastermind and puppeteer.
Lawful drakish culture is opposite to that of chaotic orcish culture.

With orcs, leaders are chosen through the killing of all rivals. They remain in power until killed in turn.

With drakes, it is The Ways' that are their supreme ruler. Beneath that are the Dominants, which are chosen by, altogether-- their skill for The Hunt, their willingness to perform an Act of Duty for the Flight of their allegiance, the esteem of their caste mates and the demonstration of a superior mind for strategy. If a Dominant betrays The Ways', it is the duty of his peers to destroy him.
Whiskeyjack wrote: June 20th, 2020, 10:08 am The Wesnoth elves are different in that regard as they are - again, on multiple occasions - presented as council-led and more free-flowing in their style of leadership, and while there seems to be some nobility, it certainly isn't mandatory for a leadership position.
The Ka'lian are a council of nobles as of 3 years before WoV. If a noble council is not unique enough for some, the meaningful point in history to change this is after Landar slaughters the original Ka'lian. Then Kalenz, not interested in taking power for himself, nor restoring a failing system, establishes your republican version.
User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1778
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Spoiler'ed the entire post since pretty everything I'm responding to is also in spoiler tags.
Spoiler:
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.
name
Posts: 429
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 3:32 am

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote: July 1st, 2020, 6:10 am Spoiler'ed the entire post since pretty everything I'm responding to is also in spoiler tags.
I will do the same then:
Spoiler:
Whiskeyjack
Posts: 476
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Beating a dead horse named Princess:
Edit: I primarily use spoiler tags to structure my posts and keep them at a digestible length, not to prevent spoiling. I do think at this point they have become somewhat dispensable.
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
name
Posts: 429
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 3:32 am

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name »

Whiskeyjack wrote: July 1st, 2020, 10:13 pm This is a highly inappropriate misapprehension of my criticisms, conflating them with the whole debacle about the female drakes, which also wasn't about "checkbox diversity", mistakes in the handling of said removal and possibly underlying "political" arguments notwithstanding :P
Compartmentalize and gloss over what just happened all you like. The fact remains we just put in several months of work rebuilding this campaign nearly from the ground up and addressing a wall of silly criticisms it took nemaara all of an hour to write.
Whiskeyjack wrote: July 1st, 2020, 10:13 pm Sometimes, you are quite fixated on miscellaneous stuff in the weirdest of places :)
A sin of which you are surely innocent.
Whiskeyjack wrote: July 1st, 2020, 10:13 pm We have main characters advancing through the (unit) "ranks" from sergeant to grand marshal with exactly one opportunity for promotion ever arriving, we have dwarves rising from grunt to "lord" (of what?) mid-expedition (expeditions usually consisting of a bunch of dwarven lords towards the end no less), we have an actual princess titled Wesfolk Outcast, but addressing an important sorceress in a leadership position with the very broad and ambiguous term "lady" is too much, because there exists a flavor unit that uses this broad and ambiguous term in its unit name? :)
This, as well, cuts both ways.

Whiskeyjack wrote: July 1st, 2020, 10:13 pm If you so much want to bring the actual unit into this though, allow me to cite the unit description for the Elvish Enchantress, as chosen unit to more adequately represent Saleanna:
And here is the canon unit description:
Elvish Enchantress wrote: The magic of the elves is wholly unlike that of humanity, so much so that humans are almost universally incapable of understanding it, let alone using it. Likewise, those who are masters of it are equally enigmatic; though it can be said that they are revered by their people, very little can be said about their actual function or purpose within that society.
Which supports the (overly, in this particular case) respected yet somewhat undefined role Princess Salennea plays in Wesmerish society.

Whiskeyjack wrote: July 1st, 2020, 10:13 pm You want the princess in as princess and that's that.**
It better fits the tonal focus of the scenario. "Lady" sounds too formal, respectable and mature. You are very focused on minute details few players will notice or care about, while losing sight of other aspects you do not enjoy but others will.
Whiskeyjack wrote: July 1st, 2020, 10:13 pm ** Do "note", that while I, as just another forum pleb, made my (rightfully ignore-able) dislike of this choice quite obvious, my argument was ever that this is working against what other people more directly involved with the elves in current mainline development were/are quite recently doing. If you cannot see why this might be a problem, we do have a problem indeed.
I believe I am trying to take a mediating role here (despite the provocative format of this post), but I do see trouble on the horizon when bad blood is already in the water and multiple projects not cooperating are bound for collision over a shared fiction.
Is this mysterious group of "other people" (aka nemaara) willing to compromise by inserting our rich work on drake lore into later mainline campaigns? Will our authority over drake canon (we being directly involved with drake mainline development) be recognized just as we are being asked to respect this new elvish "canon"?

As a mediator, feel free to pass these questions along to the other side.
Whiskeyjack
Posts: 476
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by Whiskeyjack »

name wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 3:58 amCompartmentalize and gloss over what just happened all you like. The fact remains we just put in several months of work rebuilding this campaign nearly from the ground up and addressing a wall of silly criticisms it took nemaara all of an hour to write.
And it still has nothing do to with my criticisms. While I understand the anger, it is unfair to direct it at me :P
name wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 3:58 amA sin of which you are surely innocent.
Fair enough :lol:
name wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 3:58 amThis, as well, cuts both ways.
Now this one I don't understand at all - what do you mean?
name wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 3:58 amAnd here is the canon unit description:
You might have re-developed the campaign on 1.14, but am I mistaken in the assumption that any re-addition to mainline will occur on 1.15.X? Either way, the campaign would appear alongside the newer version of the description in 1.16 at some point. Whatever this "canon" you speak of is, it won't be WoV's canon in that case...
name wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 3:58 amIs this mysterious group of "other people" (aka nemaara) willing to compromise by inserting our rich work on drake lore into later mainline campaigns? Will our authority over drake canon (we being directly involved with drake mainline development) be recognized just as we are being asked to respect this new elvish "canon"?

As a mediator, feel free to pass these questions along to the other side.
I am not the spokesperson for nemaara, just to make this clear. All of what I write here are my own opinions and arguments which are not coordinated with them. The point I'm coming from is exclusively this: I liked the goal of cleaning up mainline, removing inconsistencies, improving story-telling. nemaara and doofus-01 (mostly gameplay) have done considerable work on multiple campaigns by now (you might want to play new DiD, Liberty, and SoF at some point, though the latter only received gameplay updates AFAIK). Earthcake and LordLewis are also currently reworking AtoTB for MP. I might even point out that nemaara sent ItsTom and RangerLOL your (Sigurds) way, when they wanted to work on drake lore (I have no idea what came of that though).
The positions between which I am trying to mediate are not you vs. nemaara, but rather between the ongoing attempts to improve mainline lore and the introduction of a new entity further splintering it (now, I think most of the points concerning 1.14 campaign canon have been addressed, but as I keep pointing out, the game has not stayed there and is evolving). It will not be good for the game if two conflicting projects at odds with each other actively change/expand mainline at the same time. This is why I have asked what your intentions for the greater campaign canon are, and what should/needs to be changed in other places. This is why I keep harping on some things (the "princess" mainly being symptomatic for the fact that - AFAICT - your vision for the elves is very different from what nemaara has already done).
I have never argued from the perspective of the Big Rework (for which the drakes role is still up for grabs, btw) here, merely from changes that have already happened and are still actively ongoing. If WoV should become mainline again, you can be certain that anyone actually working on tying up the story will have to take it's events and lore into account (personally, I'm not doing much right now, but I am reconsidering the role of the drakes for "arc 3" based on WoV and your ideas...).

Beyond that, you should better direct your questions at Pentarctagon ;-)
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
name
Posts: 429
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 3:32 am

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.3 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name »

Whiskeyjack wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 8:38 am nemaara and doofus-01 (mostly gameplay) have done considerable work on multiple campaigns by now (you might want to play new DiD, Liberty, and SoF at some point, though the latter only received gameplay updates AFAIK).
I had meant to get to playing them but work on WoV took up the time.

The gameplay changes from doofus-01 to SoF sound intriguing and well thought out.

However, reading the dialogue changes to Liberty on github was shocking. The characters portrayed as campy in WoV are only observed for a brief time. Those characters that are around for longer are meant to show more sides of themselves or grow into deeper and more mature individuals through their experiences. If they remained "flat" for too long they would become tedious and too unrealistic. At first glance at least, it looked like the new Liberty might have turned the main protagonists into campy flat characters meant to be the butt of jokes throughout the whole campaign. I hope I discover otherwise when I play it. But in any case, I did partly try to match some of the new Liberty's use of humor via colorful characters with the tertiary characters and even the secondary characters (to a lesser extent) in WoV.

Oddly enough those are the ones that got mixed reactions from you but maybe you have similar reservations about the rewritten Liberty?
Whiskeyjack wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 8:38 am I might even point out that nemaara sent ItsTom and RangerLOL your (Sigurds) way, when they wanted to work on drake lore (I have no idea what came of that though).
IIRC, ItsTom did not have enough time to work on it, so it did not go as far as they were planning. What did get done seemed to agree with elements of the glider caste as developed by ESR and ourselves. Namely the role of gliders as messengers and possibly their keeping some kind of a spoken history.
Whiskeyjack wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 8:38 am The positions between which I am trying to mediate are not you vs. nemaara, but rather between the ongoing attempts to improve mainline lore and the introduction of a new entity further splintering it (now, I think most of the points concerning 1.14 campaign canon have been addressed, but as I keep pointing out, the game has not stayed there and is evolving).
As far as we have been informed, the only potential new canon conflicts are between WoV and what nemaara has issued more recently than our own WoV rework that began in January?

Now keeping in mind what you know of the reworked v2.0 WoV, please reread nemaara's original lists of criticisms of the v1.0.x WoV: [1] [2]

... Every critique in those posts was incorporated into the rewrite. If need be, I can go over those critiques, one by one, and explain how v2.0 answered each. Should I?

After all those critiques, nemaara/yumi then complained about the fact we have a scenario with a lich and that dilutes the effect the undead are meant to have in her rewrite proposal (she provided no prior warning this might be an issue in her original complaints). So I changed the lich to a lich-lord according to nemaara's idea (mentioned only briefly on discord) of the lich-lords being, IIRC, some kind of pantheon with different individuals playing different demigod like roles (Jevyan being akin to the lich-lord of war) with the concept of the lich-lord Siravan (a kind of world-maintainer like Atlas and a magical-mad-scientist-reality-tinkerer). Also, like Jevyan in the new canon (I think?), Siravan cannot be truly killed in the events of WoV (hopefully this should be a bit more clear in some dialogue changes I have done based on feedback).

The reason I am giving you this history is to show we have made many, many changes to _attempt_ to keep up with all of this. Yet now there's issues with new elves replacing the old elves we have in WoV. And from what nemaara has indicated plus what you are saying now, there's plenty more piecemeal changes on the way. And for some reason, WoV is the only mainline campaign that has to be updated in such a piecemeal fashion. No one is having to update HttT to keep it in mainline while changes are drip-fed to canon one commit at a time.

And let's not forget, SigurdFireDragon began the project to create a mainline drake campaign back in 2018, well before all this nonsense.
Whiskeyjack wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 8:38 am This is why I keep harping on some things (the "princess" mainly being symptomatic for the fact that - AFAICT - your vision for the elves is very different from what nemaara has already done).
If the only blocking issue preventing WoV being restored to mainline and no longer pestered, is changing the official title of one character to represent an elected position rather than an inherited one, then that is not at all a bad trade. If the same character needs to be debuffed to a magic-less low level unit that also is acceptable.

Yet how likely is it at this point that one more one sided compromise from us would be enough.
Whiskeyjack wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 8:38 am This is why I have asked what your intentions for the greater campaign canon are, and what should/needs to be changed in other places.
[...]
If WoV should become mainline again, you can be certain that anyone actually working on tying up the story will have to take it's events and lore into account (personally, I'm not doing much right now, but I am reconsidering the role of the drakes for "arc 3" based on WoV and your ideas...).
At that point, just give me a nudge and I will review the later campaigns and the then-state of canon, then put together a much more detailed concept for where the drakes are headed from the events of WoV.
SigurdFireDragon
Developer
Posts: 503
Joined: January 12th, 2011, 2:18 am
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Wings of Valor 2.0.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by SigurdFireDragon »

Version 2.0.4 is up

S08 Foothills: Scenario overhaul for a smaller map with more focused gameplay.
Dialog tweaks in S05, 07, 09, and 12 to address player feedback. (https://github.com/sigurdfdragon/Wings_ ... dc4d2447af)

No further changes are planned, and WoV is considered finished.

However, I won’t be submitting a PR to add WoV to mainline at this time,
as it is not currently ideal for me to undertake what would be involved with that.
I’ll reevaluate the situation in a couple of months.

Bug reports and gameplay feedback are always welcome.
Maintainer of Wings of Valor
My Add-ons: Random Campaign, Custom Campaign, Ultimate Random Maps, Era of Legends, Gui Debug Tools
Erfworld: The comic that lead me to find Wesnoth.
almkglor
Posts: 2
Joined: December 22nd, 2020, 11:55 am

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by almkglor »

I'm not sure if there is some other intent, but in Scenario 6 Elensefar I lit the brazier at turn 1, just to see what Karron was packing. It triggered a bloody battle between Karron and the Elensefar human troops. The human leader was foolish enough to leave the keep and got accidentally assassinated. At turn 4 Karron took control of the keep and recruited a bunch of units and by turn 6 the forward edge of my forces mopped up the last human soldier. It seems Karron's group is unusually powerful, and of course an assassination strategy is always an option when playing Drakes, you just almost never really get such an opportunity with a bunch of level 2s and a level 3 Blademaster. The scenario seems unfairly easy when played that way (especially in comparison to the careful manoeuvring slog of the previous scenario "Three Sisters").

If the accidental assassination of the human leader was me just being lucky, well --- I disagree. Karron was careful and didn't expose himself to attack, using his troops to shield him and distract the human troops, and by the time most of his starting troops were dead and dying, my front edge was there to support Karron and help continue shielding him as his initial troops were dying. It seems unlikely he would have gotten trapped even if the dumb human leader hadn't managed to get himself killed.

This was in the medium difficulty setting.

Maybe for balance Karron's group can be smaller if it is triggered early, then as turns pass by it gets larger and more powerful, it seems reasonable to explain that as Karron gathering troops and that the later you trigger it, the more troops Karron can bring to bear.

Nice world-building BTW.
name
Posts: 429
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 3:32 am

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name »

Good catch, that is definitely a bug in our balancing.

The intent was that it be necessary to draw out the human forces to meet you on the field in the south, before calling in the reinforcements to flank and assassinate their leader and take the largely undefended city. (Whereas calling reinforcements on the first turn should have meant Karron's death and a drake defeat.)

Will try making the human leader stationary and reducing the power of Karron's initial strike force (while also removing Karron's defeat from the player lose conditions to compensate). Maybe grant the human side a smarter AI controller as well. Having Karron's wing slowly grow over turns as you suggest is also a good possible fix.

Thanks again for the feedback and be sure to share any further issues and thoughts from your play through. :)
almkglor
Posts: 2
Joined: December 22nd, 2020, 11:55 am

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by almkglor »

Well Wesmere was a sudden jump in difficulty -- mostly because the elves are packing pierce, but also in comparison with the Elensefar "light the damn brazier at turn 1 LOLWIN". It does kinda fit the narrative --- they're now significantly overextended, and elves *are* packing pierce, and in the next scenario they're now fleeing from angry elves, so it seems plausible.

An interesting Blue/Orange morality for Drakes would be: Drakes conflate warfare with The Hunt, and cannot understand why sentients would wage war if not for the purpose of getting food. So when they see humans hunting (i.e. waging war on) orcs, and leaving the corpses of the orcs uneaten and burying them in mass graves, they are mortified -- they think humans are hunting just for the fun of it, or for some worse, even more disturbing reason (they are offering the corpses to an underground god of darkness, which is why they are burying the corpses of their fallen prey instead of eating them!).. Undead they see as playing with food using magic. That also makes the "rogue" flights doubly disturbing in their morality --- the "rogue" flights are hunting their fellow drake due to a desperate lack of food.
name
Posts: 429
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 3:32 am

Re: Wings of Valor 2.0.4 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14)

Post by name »

I would be interested in taking a look at your Wesmere replay if you don't mind posting it. There's a few ways to play this scenario so I am curious to see how each of us approaches it and whether the game play and instructions were clear enough.
almkglor wrote: December 24th, 2020, 12:24 pm An interesting Blue/Orange morality for Drakes would be: Drakes conflate warfare with The Hunt, and cannot understand why sentients would wage war if not for the purpose of getting food. So when they see humans hunting (i.e. waging war on) orcs, and leaving the corpses of the orcs uneaten and burying them in mass graves, they are mortified -- they think humans are hunting just for the fun of it, or for some worse, even more disturbing reason (they are offering the corpses to an underground god of darkness, which is why they are burying the corpses of their fallen prey instead of eating them!).. Undead they see as playing with food using magic. That also makes the "rogue" flights doubly disturbing in their morality --- the "rogue" flights are hunting their fellow drake due to a desperate lack of food.
You bring up some interesting ideas here; let me know when you have finished the campaign so I can respond to these without accidentally spoiling any plot points for you.
Post Reply