[UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

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Xudo
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Xudo »

Dugi wrote:Find a library for that, there is a lot of them available for anything. PHP is insanely slow and limited and C# is pretty much windows-only (and wesnoth stuff should run on all platforms), limited and much slower when compared to C/C++. Its overusage in programming today is the reason why many programs are so slow even on fast computers.
What library are you talking? Why do ladder shoud ever be cross-platform? Have you any idea how PHP or ASP.net sites are working?

WML can add up to your programming skill, if you have no skill at all. Wesnoth definitely helped me at the start, because it is great for understanding algorithmization and event handling. But there is no OOP, no memory management, no patterns, no complex things at all. Thats why it will not help me any further.

I don't want variety in all aspects of gameplay. Too much "variety" is not good.
Dugi wrote:any player can decide that look, this dude is limited to physical attacks, I'll just take heavy armour and he'll do little damage to me so that his advantage of first attack would be nearly void.
For first time players there should be "tutorial" scenario designed to show them basics of gameplay. Classes will be allowed to use magical and physical attacks in the same time.
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iceiceice
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by iceiceice »

Just a comment:

WML is indeed a very basic programming language, it reminds me most of Microsoft QuickBASIC. It's basically that with a wesnoth API, plus the "endearing" open tag / close tag syntax, and support for macros. Filters are probably the only "powertool" available to you in WML. It's not really intended as a general purpose langauge, it's just powerful enough to comfortably make scripted game scenarios.

Lua on the other hand is much more feature-rich. Lua supports OOP, through classes, tables, metatables, etc. Lua also supports continuations very well, a nice design pattern and one that C++ offers only comparatively awkward support for. So if your goal is to get practice with advanced / modern programming techniques I think this could certainly be done with lua.

I don't think you should be too saddened by the inability to manually manage memory in lua or WML, I think most people are quite thankful for this. It's a controversial thing but I think it's usually considered that devising sophisticated manual memory management schemes is indicative of bad design (except in super high performance applications, and then it should only be done in the context of profiling and optimization). Even in C++ the trend is to use boost "smart pointers" whenever possible to make things work automatically. Manual memory management in practice leads to obnoxious and difficult to track down runtime errors -- if it were possible for WML coding errors to generate segfaults I would bet money that 90% of the addons on the add-on server would crash this way. If by manage memory you don't mean "I want to have pointers" and you only mean "I want the game to release memory for some variable when I say to", all you have to do is use [clear_variable] and the engine will free the underlying memory. Lua is similarly "stack-based" and not garbage collected, so you have more or less direct control over exactly when memory is freed (if I understand correctly.)

Edit: Actually I guess I'm wrong, lua is only stack-based for the local variables, but is garbage collected in general.
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Xudo
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#10 Artifacts

Post by Xudo »

#10 Artifacts
Creation of artifact is supposed to affect gameplay in several ways:
  • Inrease gameplay variety. Player can change set of used artifacts with major impact on gameplay.
  • Provide a reward for high pvp rank or from succesful completing tales
  • Object of exploration. When player completes tale, he gets "badge". When player submits replay on the site, this badge can be identified to one item from specific range.
  • Index of character progress.
Player can choose X items for character in private office on site. Y (Y<X) of them will be "active". Player can activate artifacts (from range of X) in game in the beginning of his turn.
Artifacts can be included in several groups. Character can activate only one item from each group.
Each artifact features range of variants, which affect its value. Artifact always have one variant if they are defined.

Example of groups: weapons, armor.
Example of items:
Royal mail
Group: armor
Effects:
increases hp by 19
defines resistances (p-b-i): (0-20-20)
decreases movement by 1 mp (medium armor)
Variants:
Royal mail of Swordsman - increases sword potency by 5-6
Royal mail of Pikeman - in addition increases spear potency by 10-12

Two handed orcish sword
Group: weapon
Effects:
defines strikes: 2
Allows to use skill: "Cleaving attack"
Variants:
Two handed orcish sword of war - Increases sword potency by 5-6
Rusty two-handed orcish sword - decreases sword potency by 1

Holy scepter
Group: none
Effects:
Allows to use skill: "Heal"
Variants:
Holy scepter of light - increases vision range by 1
Holy scepter of rightness - increases sword potency by 2
original language:
Last edited by Xudo on July 24th, 2014, 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dugi
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Dugi »

Xudo wrote:What library are you talking?
I haven't talked so much that it would become a library.
Xudo wrote:Have you any idea how PHP or ASP.net sites are working?
Nope. I hate webapps. They have to be downloaded every time they're used, can't be used offline, they're slow because they need communication with the server for every action and frequently require the obsolete Adobe Flash Player. I was assuming that you weren't planning one of these. How do you plan to use PHP to open gz archives wesnoth save files use?
Xudo wrote:But there is no OOP, no memory management, no patterns, no complex things at all.
So should I take it that your experience with algorithms and data structures is complete and maximal, requiring nothing further? Very well then, you are the grand master.
But as iceiceice told, lua has OOP, WML does have memory management (doom to those who don't delete unused variables), you can use design patterns everywhere and if you think that there are no complex things at all, I invite you to read the codes of SlowThinker, which are in fact self-mutating codes launched from variables. The possibility to create and delete events, though rarely used, makes WML interesting theoretically.
Xudo wrote:I don't want variety in all aspects of gameplay. Too much "variety" is not good.
It's not the best idea to have this view about an RPG. It's easier to balance this way, but judging from the things you've written, I am not sure if Team Fortress 2 isn't more RPG-ish than your draft.
A good RPG lets you customise your character, assemble abilities that work together and surprise its author with the power or just creativity of a build you've created. In your draft, there is little customisation, just some possibilities to tune your character.
Xudo wrote:For first time players there should be "tutorial" scenario designed to show them basics of gameplay. Classes will be allowed to use magical and physical attacks in the same time.
This wasn't my point. My point was that melee physical damage-oriented characters would be weak against heavy armour-users so much that the disadvantage of having to be attacked first would be of little sacrifice (assuming that the character will not pair the heavy armour with Boots of Fast Movement, Gauntlets of Quick Feet and Helmet of Quickness when he loses no defence by not wearing something protection-oriented instead). And it's not much RPG-like to make all characters equally good with physical and magical attacks.

Btw, you can't notice that you shouldn't write the contents of spoiler titles in quotation marks?
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Xudo
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Xudo »

Dugi wrote:
Xudo wrote:Have you any idea how PHP or ASP.net sites are working?
Nope. I hate webapps.
It means that discussion with you about concept of custom ladder for specific add-on is not constructive.
Dugi wrote:How do you plan to use PHP to open gz archives wesnoth save files use?
First google query have result: http://php.net/manual/en/function.gzfile.php
All regular tasks are already coded. The only problem is to choose technology and implement unique things like replay validation and private office.
Dugi wrote:if you think that there are no complex things at all, I invite you to read the codes of SlowThinker, which are in fact self-mutating codes launched from variables.
I will take a look at SlowThinker work.
Though, discussion about "how much programming experience I can get from creating Wesnoth add-ons" is not a subject of this topic and is only my personal business. I only advise you to get more information about web apps backend and design patterns.
Dugi wrote:This wasn't my point. My point was that melee physical damage-oriented characters would be weak against heavy armour-users so much that the disadvantage of having to be attacked first would be of little sacrifice.
This problem should be solved on the stage of balansing, not on the stage of planning.
In other words: I will try to increase difference between 5mp and 6 mp characters in favor of 6mp one. Assuming that all players have equal base movement, advantages from armor should cost sacrificing 1 mp.
Items, which increase movement will be rare and not very powerful in other means.
Dugi wrote:And it's not much RPG-like to make all characters equally good with physical and magical attacks.
I'm not going to stick to RPG in its classic meaning, if it will obstruct design of my add-on. It's "RPG-style", not RPG.
There will be heroes, leveling, items, tales, lore. But gameplay will be based on other considerations.
Dugi wrote:Btw, you can't notice that you shouldn't write the contents of spoiler titles in quotation marks?
Yeah, I did. Though it doesn't bother me much.
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Dugi »

Less important stuff:
I'm not going to stick to RPG in its classic meaning, if it will obstruct design of my add-on. It's "RPG-style", not RPG.
There is a great number of games with all of these things like heroes, leveling (of some sort), items, tales and lore and their-description has nothing to do with RPGs. Assassin's Creed has heroes, a little levelling, items, quests and lore. Brütal Legend has a hero, a levelling of some sort, items, spells, quests and lore. Amnesia has a hero, items, quests and lore (levelling was removed in alpha). Far Cry 3 has a hero, advancing, items, quests and lore. Neither of them is called an RPG or RPG-like, not even Far Cry 3, calling your draft RPG-related is only misleading, because most of my posts were coming from this misunderstanding.

However, I am somewhat interested to know what would be the point of your add-on's gameplay. Wesnoth add-ons can't be action-based. With only a single character, there is no strategy and the need of tactical planning isn't greater than in first person shooters (choose your position to fire and pick a good order to kill the enemies). It isn't much an RPG because you can't customise your character much and it isn't about seeking combinations of items and abilities to work together and allow you to defeat the enemies. You don't seem to be making an adventure game. What will be the gameplay about? It isn't interesting to use four abilities repeatedly and a little protagonist customisation. Wesnoth allows you to give up the army tactic part of the game and replace it with turn-based RPG gameplay (or just add it without ditching anything), add some building strategy, add some story-based adventure game style item usage, but you're using neither of them. Many of the abilities you've described will be useless in PvP (such as the living bomb to explode a unit - it can't just explode the opponent player, right?), so even the PvP will be mostly about having a greater level and a more suitable hero type. Dig deeper in the RPG part or it will be very boring and not worth all of the effort.
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Raijer »

As a fan of RPGs, i must say your topic is quite interesting. But some points look quite strange, or so vague i don't even see your point. So, i'm going to critic mostly about how you're talking and talking, and seems like nothing's done.
I'm not going to say anything about coding (you seem to be quite good, and i'm really weak at it), although your ideas must sound like hell for most UMC makers on Wesnoth.

It's been 7 years since the last HL2 addition was published... I know Valve doesn't have only HL, but 7 years is quite long. Please don't start saying things like that, it looks like you have no motivation, and indeed, your project depends on your motivation.
So, when do you intend to start coding at least a basic testing scenario? It's been ±2 months since you started this topic, maybe trying to implement some of those ideas would be useful. Also, making a test scenario would allow you to get feedback about balancing and unexpected bugs.

Looking at this, it seems like a project which you will stop when you're a little busy, then come back and etc... Looking at the rythm Wesnoth has, you can expect to see 1.13.15 in 3 years and a half. Looking at your rythm, i hope your code won't be obsolete by then (ok that was seriously too hard on you, but think about it).

Now onto the concepts: let's see... My first impression was "ideas! Ideas everywhere!". Quite nice all in all. The problem is on the second impression: at that point i re-read your topic and thought something like "there's nothing concrete". By that i mean that you're giving out examples although you don't know how to balance it, they're just here to clarify your ideas and nothing else, but... They're too precise, and they seem set in stone, which i hope they aren't, or you're gonna cry during the balancing phase. So again, too much talking, not enough action.

Frankly, if you had shown a complete list of classes, possible abilities, and how this or that class completes this one and is weak against that one (to increase the interest of team-playing), why not (more like, awesome). Also a list of items, showing that they can't make a hero cheated, but they still give a consistent advantage. There, we're still speaking of concept (nothing implemented yet), but people can comment usefully, to say that this or that item is too strong, doesn't have enough weaknesses, or too many... What you're giving is too vague. It would be like drawing a perfect oval and saying "i'm going to draw someone's face." It looks beautiful and all, but there isn't much inside yet.

Also, same problem as with Dugi, from what you've shown, there doesn't seem to be enough variety to actually last more than one run through the story (if there is a story).
Though your idea of levelling up abilities through use/books could be quite awesome (and most likely another reason to cry during the balancing, but we're not there yet).
Oh yeah, about the story, you have one in mind or it's just slash through X armies to get to the demon lord, and there's a greater demon lord, and bla bla bla...

So. Looking at it all, there are lots of good ideas, you seem able to implement it, but... When you dig a little, it's empty. As in, i don't know when there will be at least a test version, i don't know if you're going to give up half way because you're not interested anymore/it's harder than you thought/etc..., and i seriously don't know how you're going to balance it in the end. And i don't even know if it's going to be interesting.

But, by all means, please don't give up, you're one of the few that tries to make an RPG-like on Wesnoth, try taking this to develop it better, more than taking it as "you're bad, get out" which i absolutely don't mean.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

William Ernest Henley
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Xudo
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Xudo »

Dugi wrote:And why are many of those original language versions lacking some parts and sometimes written better? For example 'не может быть долго в контактном бою' (='can't stay in melee combat for too long') in the Russian version is way more specific than simply 'fragile' in the English version.
Russian language is my native. Thats why I write each article on russian and translate it after. Loss of sense is a consequence of translation difficulties.
Dugi wrote:However, I am somewhat interested to know what would be the point of your add-on's gameplay.
In short - non-default experience management for 1-3 characters and use of artifacts and enviroment.
PvP should be about having suitable set of artifacts.
Dugi wrote:You don't seem to be making an adventure game. ... add some story-based adventure game style item usage
I'm going to implement cooperative maps without pvp. They are called tales. I will write more about it later.

I'm not going to focus on the city building.

Regarding "Living bomb" and "Other players should be able to dodge AoE spell in some way.". In team pvp, "dodging of living bomb" means "dodging it for everyone besides the target of living bomb". Though, I will think about adding an artifact with spell "self magic immunity", which will allow target of living bomb to dodge its effect too.


Raijer wrote:So, when do you intend to start coding at least a basic testing scenario? It's been ±2 months since you started this topic, maybe trying to implement some of those ideas would be useful. Also, making a test scenario would allow you to get feedback about balancing and unexpected bugs.
I was very busy all these 2 months. Now things are settled down and I can afford to have a pet project.
First thing I will going to implement is era and sandbox for testing.
Raijer wrote:Looking at this, it seems like a project which you will stop when you're a little busy, then come back and etc... Looking at the rythm Wesnoth has, you can expect to see 1.13.15 in 3 years and a half. Looking at your rythm, i hope your code won't be obsolete by then (ok that was seriously too hard on you, but think about it).
"Stopping every time when developers is busy" is a disease which affects all open-source projects. I'm going to stick only around stable versions since 1.12. Thats why I have 5-6 years until 1.14 will came out =)
Though, Wesnoth is designed to be backward compatible, so I dont worry about changes in syntax a lot.
Raijer wrote:Now onto the concepts: let's see... My first impression was "ideas! Ideas everywhere!". Quite nice all in all. The problem is on the second impression: at that point i re-read your topic and thought something like "there's nothing concrete". By that i mean that you're giving out examples although you don't know how to balance it, they're just here to clarify your ideas and nothing else, but... They're too precise, and they seem set in stone, which i hope they aren't, or you're gonna cry during the balancing phase. So again, too much talking, not enough action.
You are right. Most of numbers here are only examples. But some are not.
Default movement will be always 6 and can vary from 4 to 8. It will be easier to go from 6 to 4 than from 6 to 8. This came out from mainline wesnoth. You can notice, that tough dwarves have 4 movement. Most of regular fighters have 5 movement and nimble elves have 6 movement. Only scouts have more than 6 movement and they are fragile and\or weak.
Difference between 5 and 6 movement means difference between 2 and 3 steps on bad terrain.
Experience values have underlying meaning. It described in #1.
Quantity of weapons strikes will usually be in range described in #3. I'm not sure about damage formula though.
Some spell ranges will be fixed too.
Since now, I will mark properties of spell or artifact which are a subject of balance and which are not.
Raijer wrote:Frankly, if you had shown a complete list of classes, possible abilities, and how this or that class completes this one and is weak against that one (to increase the interest of team-playing), why not (more like, awesome). Also a list of items, showing that they can't make a hero cheated, but they still give a consistent advantage. There, we're still speaking of concept (nothing implemented yet), but people can comment usefully, to say that this or that item is too strong, doesn't have enough weaknesses, or too many... What you're giving is too vague.
I'm working on the list of classes, but it would be better if I make some sort of API (which will anyway be implemented) with WML-like syntax (using custom lua tags), so that anyone can define spell or artifact.
And this is where I can start coding.
Raijer wrote:Oh yeah, about the story, you have one in mind or it's just slash through X armies to get to the demon lord, and there's a greater demon lord, and bla bla bla...
it's a shame for me, but I find it hard to write stories. I think, I will ask for help in this matter.
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Dugi »

Russian language is my native. Thats why I write each article on russian and translate it after. Loss of sense is a consequence of translation difficulties.
You seem to be doing your best with English anyway, it's my problem that I am reading cyrillic letters so slowly.
In short - non-default experience management for 1-3 characters and use of artifacts and enviroment.
PvP should be about having suitable set of artifacts.
These are essential points you have not described anywhere so far. Maybe you could write an introduction at the top of the first post that would describe all significant things in the add-on to enlighten everyone what is your add-on gonna be about. Without it, you've clearly seen that all the other stuff is misleading.
I'm going to implement cooperative maps without pvp. They are called tales. I will write more about it later.
I think that it's way more important than a lot of the stuff you've written so far. You should have mentioned this in the introduction.
Thats why I have 5-6 years until 1.14 will came out =)
This is a perfect view for not doing anything. If you want to do anything at all, START DOING IT RIGHT NOW!
it's a shame for me, but I find it hard to write stories. I think, I will ask for help in this matter.
I think that if you asked for some ideas, you'd get some easily. I think that there's enough people willing to help with this matter. You can PM me regarding this if you want. Knightmare should also be willing to provide some stories.

So after all this discussion, you came to conclude that all the add-on will be about items/artifacts. If there's no action, no usual meaning strategy, little tactic, nothing else but story to keep it interesting, these artifacts would need to be really well made. The ones you've suggested so far were far from enough numerous and their properties were quite boring, attack, defence, it's all like getting better items, getting maximum offence with suitable defence. Still more like a niche feature than the most important strategic part of the add-on. Only the extra skills are interesting in some way, but they would not be very interesting if they can't cooperate or synergise with other skills. Most characters have their skills and will not benefit much from skills that would be just used instead of theirs.
Comparing your artifacts with a game that isn't an RPG and items aren't an essential thing there:
I think that if you want to have well made items/artifacts, you should try to follow the game Path of Exile. Its unique items are very close to your vision of artifacts. Some of them are just to help low level players to advance or provide some useful bonuses easily for a cost of being otherwise bad, but many others are there to significantly change the game (there are many boring, randomly generated items that give the usual properties like extra damage and life, but can be very potent). Examples:
Sceptre for necromancers (the typical paladin hero there is strangely quite suited for necromancy) that decreases the player's number of zombies summonable, but makes them stronger and able to make the enemies they killed explode and damage other enemies
Two handed axe that behaves like two weapons and allows the player to get bonuses both from dual wielding and from wearing a heavy two-handed weapon - but it isn't exceptionally strong itself
Bow that deals large amounts of ligtning damage, transforms it to poison damage (that pierces a lot of usual defences) and allows poison damage to shock enemies like lightning damage
Potent hammer that causes the player to get less experience and find less items (that makes it good for quests and other special occasions)
Ring that gives a lot of good bonuses but prevents the player from wearing a second ring
Bow whose arrows always pierce enemies and thus hit many enemies, but prevents draining life (which is a very important thing usually)
Axe that prevents insufficient mana from preventing melee attacks (extremely hard to get, isn't terribly powerful by itself)
Armour that makes summons deal extra poison damage for some time after killing an enemy, but otherwise not very protective
Ring that can make a single skill become much more powerful, but the skill can't be supported by other skills in some ways
Hammer that allows automatically casting some lightning spells when attacking, but requires a lot of strength and intelligence
Wand that allows many extra summons, but decreases maximum life
Sword that strongly increases resistances, but makes the player find less items
A potion that instantly heals the player, but poisons him afterwards so that it can save life but the total amount of life healed is petty (unless the player has good resistance against poison, but that's hard to get)
Quite a bad armour that makes the player take 40% of damage into the mana pool
Armour that heavily increases maximum life, but somewhat limits the number of skills usable
Ring that decreases resistances, but makes the player find much better items
Claw that increases spell damage according to the player's block chance (so that huge block change would unusually synergise with spells)
Sceptre that makes strength increase spell damage, but isn't a very good weapon (so that a rambo would be able to be a potent wizard)
Bow that makes arrows shot at short distance much more powerful
Helmet that is insanely strong, but prevents the player from using normal chest armour
Armour that allows having more totems up, but curses the player for a while if one of the totems is destroyed
Dagger that poisons enemies near enemies who die from poison (isn't as strong as it looks like)
Armour that causes a part of physical damage to be taken as lightning damage, but decreases the resistance to lightning (lightning resistance can go far higher than armour, but with that weakness to lightning effect it requires a lot of lightning resistance from other items)
Wand that makes spells much stronger under certain conditions, but increase their mana cost

Properties like this should make your artifacts interesting. Modifying the game's behaviour in some ways, being purely made to synergise with other effects, modifying the behaviour of skills, gives various nice bonuses at a cost and so on can make your add-on interesting. The artifacts you've described so far are simpler than most items in Legend of the Invincibles, that does not give up the usual wesnothish army tactic.
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Xudo »

#11 Tales
Tale is scenario where players have to cooperate to solve some gameplay tasks.
At this moment, I mind following tasks:
  • Boss encounter
  • Survivng against waves of monsters
  • Solving puzzles
original language:
Boss encounter
Boss is one (two, or rarely three) NPC's which have a lot of hitpoints and high damage in default combat.
From time to time, boss will "use" some skills (usually enviromental), get power up, or weakness for a while
To complete encounter, players have to:
  • Run out of dangerous zone, or group in safe zone
  • Run away from each other ot group close to each other
  • Avoid unnecessary default combat and wait good moment for attack
original language:
Survivng against waves of monsters
Wave will consist of multiple weak and slow enemies. Most of them will have 0 lvl. Some NPC's will have 1 lvl and unusual abilities, which will make them harder for some classes.
To survive, players should:
  • Hold a line and rotate each other to heal.
  • Properly use enviromental skills
  • Use enemies of 1 lvl as a source of experience
original language:
Puzzles
Puzzle tale is a range of rooms. Each room contain buttons and doors.
If players are make a mistake in solving, they get a penalty (decrease damage or decrease max hp).
If players solve puzzle in room, then an NPC will appear. If players have made a lot of mistakes, they might be too weak to survive now. Though it depends on their playing skill.

First type of puzzle is "press buttons in right sequence". If players have chosen wrong step, then they get a penalty.
There should be "reset" button. If all players are not on the buttons and some player moves to "reset" button, then game will expect sequence from its beginning.

Second type of puzzle is "choose right buttons". There will be range of buttons (A). Players have to choose subrange of buttons (B) and step there. B.length = (quantity of units - 1). One of characters should press button "test". If players have chosen right buttons, then they proceed. If any button is wrong - they get penalty.
original language:
#12 Separate design from balansing
There are a number of problems, which have to be solved before I feel their consequences.
  • Tales should be interesting to players of different level. As the auditory is very small, it will be bad idea to group players by level and separate them.
  • If designer will write exact numbers of damage and hitpoints, then I will have to update every tale every time I change skills or artifacts.
  • Puzzle tales have too little variety. If subrange B will be same every time, then there will be no challenge at all.
This is going to be most complicated thing in whole project.

To solve this problem, I am going to implement custom ActionWML by means of custom lua tags.
Using this CAWML, designer will be able to define spawn point, movement speed of NPCs, their level and special abilities. If I will know level, I will know how strong this enemy should be (hp and damage in default combat and strength of special abilities).
In Puzzle scenarios, designer will be able to define range A (all buttons present in the room). When the tale will start, then, assuming quantity of players, subrange B will be choosed.

To decrease a number of calculations, each spell will containf formula, which will be used to calculate potency of this spell in dependency from character attributes.
Character potency will be assumed as sum of strength of its spells and artifacts. Potency of group will be assumed as sum of strength of its members.
For example: "Cleaving strike" (deal double weapon damage. accuracy 40%, requires two-handed sword). Its formula will look like: potency = sword_potency * 2 * 0.4
original language:
Dugi wrote:I think that if you asked for some ideas, you'd get some easily. I think that there's enough people willing to help with this matter. You can PM me regarding this if you want. Knightmare should also be willing to provide some stories.
First of all, I need overall picture of world. I don't need any random stories. They all should fit to some world.

I have following options:
  • post-wesnoth time anywhere in the world.
  • Anytime in far West
  • Homeland of orks
  • Scatter events of the tales across the history of wesnoth
I would like to see any opinions about pros and cons of these options. I want to end up with description of three enemy "factions" with range of units.
1-2 minion (lvl 0 unit), 4-5 regular, 2-3 elite ones and as much "bosses" as you can imagine.
For example:
Undead faction - (taken from mainline) Mindless constructs, obeying whoever created them without question nor thought.
minion: WC
regular: skeleton (have unusual resistances), Ghoul (creates a cloud of poison for 1 turn on death)
elite: Ghost (unusual resistances, immunity to physical weapons), Necromancer (Can summon WCs and cast basic spells)
boss: Death knight (Have skeleton resistances at the night and swordman resistances at the day. Deals heavy damage at night. If he have 8 xp at night, then he performs "BONE STORM" dealing damage to everyone in range of 2 tiles.
The more information the better.
Dugi wrote:The ones you've suggested so far were far from enough numerous and their properties were quite boring, attack, defence, it's all like getting better items, getting maximum offence with suitable defence. Still more like a niche feature than the most important strategic part of the add-on. Only the extra skills are interesting in some way, but they would not be very interesting if they can't cooperate or synergise with other skills. Most characters have their skills and will not benefit much from skills that would be just used instead of theirs.
Most of items descriptions present in this thread are supposed to be an examples.
I'll try to focus on extra skills or indirect bonuses to current skills.
One more point: Skills have to contain variable part.
Just throwing more ideas in this pool:
Amulet of gryphon feather - if player steps on the trap, it will not trigger in 40% cases.
Rod of telepathy - player can transfer 2-4 xp to ally player.
Shovel - player can dig up fortification, which will increase its defence by 10%.
Target dummy - player can install target dummy. In 80% of cases It will not attack, neither move, will have ZoC and some hp. In other 20% of cases it will have 1 lvl, few hp, enemy faction, ZoC and retaliation (4 damage 2 strikes).
Some thing - 20% of your default combat fights do not generate experience for enemy.
Spartanian boot - knocks enemy back for one tile with a chance of 80%.
Quick shot - when character is attacked, in 50% he will be able to deal initial damage = damage of one strike of ranged attack
Last edited by Xudo on October 18th, 2014, 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Dugi »

Well, when I know what you're doing we can discuss things better.

I think that the tales shouldn't have standartised enemies. Every single one should have its own enemies with its own challenges. It will make them more memorable and differing from each other.

Surviving enemy hordes by rotating units for healing will make it boring in my opinion. Quick attacks so that combat would last only a few turns should be more interesting, healing can happen quickly when no enemies are nearby.
Environment skills will require the dungeon builders to make the terrain very varied, otherwise only one environment skill will rule in the entire tale. Maybe the same environment skill could be used in different ways depending on terrain, but usable on all terrains, for example in water, it would summon a tentacle of the deep, in forest or on grass, it would raise wines to entangle the enemy, on paved terrains or interiors it would bring a shot from a siege machine and in caves, it would cause the location to cave in.

Better don't plan puzzles that way, you'd end up repeating the same puzzles over and over. New and new ideas for puzzles will come.

Regarding stories:
Post wesnoth - good that practically anything can happen because outside of the UtBS+IftU+AtS+AtSSequel period, there is practically nothing set for millennia of years, so that empires can rise and fall there and it would affect nothing. It was stated in these add-ons that no really stable long-term civilisation existed at that time, so it isn't a time for a world with one dominant civilisation. This would be good for placing events with massive consequences, but bad if you want it to happen in an entirely civilised world. Its disadvantage is that there are two suns on the skies (and I don't know about any campaign that described the removal the additional one, and in Legend of the Invincibles, it was noted that it never happened).
Far West - usual world with little terrain defined and little events defined. Excellent far away place with all events happening in distant lands, but events affecting the entire world should not happen.
Homeland of Orcs - would need to be orc-centered, hard to place unholy evil here when there are thousands of warriors who don't like undead
Across the history of Wesnoth - players like this as far as I know. Placing the tales correctly will need to check a lot of sources to avoid clashes and pose limitations.

Example story (can be placed anywhere):
The player is sent to protect a few mage theoreticians from possible bandit threat. The mages are traveling into ancient ruins that might contain artifacts of power. A few bandit packs are countered and the ruins are quickly reached. The mages settlement in the ruins is attacked by various enemies like wolves, bandits, undead or goblins, attacking mysteriously together. The players' group is sent to investigate where did they come from. All humanoid beings they meet seem to be insane and attack after short discussion about nothing. After returning, the mages seem to be having problems with insanity as well, because some of them attacked others and had to be killed. Shortly after, the dead mages, bandits and other former attackers raise as undead and attack the settlement again, but are defeated.

The mages reveal that they have found something in the ruins that is hostile and they can't fight it. The players investigate the ruins, finding that they're filled with mummies and other exotic undead. Because they can fight better than mage theoreticians, they manage to penetrate far deeper, through various labyrinthine puzzles and traps until they reach an otherwise unreachable summit of a mountain, that is dominated by a huge tower (or pyramid, or ziggurat). At the gates of the tower, they find an artifact of noticeable power. When they take it, the earth shakes, the ancient building opens and the skies become covered with stormy clouds. Undead come out of the gates, but they can be handled. Inside the tower/pyramid/ziggurat, they find more undead and an old coffin. Looking for treasures, they peek inside and a big badass undead comes out of it. He explains that the mages awakened him and he started affecting the minds of all weak around. This made the mages decide to investigate and caused the player to eventually release him. After three millennia of imprisonment, he was free and able to bring doom to the world again. All the undead return to unlife and ovepowered players have to flee, jumping from the summit into a lake deep bellow.

While the undead slowly stalk through the underground tunnels, the mages build a temporary magical wall that seals the summit. Unlike the old civilisation who build the ruins, they have no idea what that thing is, why they could not defeat him and how to imprison it again or defeat it. After clearing the undead from the (this time much more ruined) tunnels again, they find a few tables containing some information. The mages decipher the information and tell that the horrid undead being is called He Who Brings Hailstorms, was an ancient priest that secretly worshipped a dark god pretending to be worshipping another creating a cult of unknowing worshippers or darkness, causing the god to raise in power and be strong enough to make his high priest deathless. His horrible rule was ended when sorcerers found a way to disperse the storm clouds and the sun weakened him enough to let some warriors defeat him. Because he could not be killed, they imprisoned him. Because the dark god who was giving him power was forgotten after all the millennia, his power and his priest's gift were gone and he was killable, though still powerful.

The mages reused the ancient spell to disperse the storm clouds and the players destroyed all revived undead outside the magical barrier around the summit. When they entered the world inside, all undead were still coming back to unlife after being killed, so the mages started slowly shrinking the barrier, always releasing a few undead from their master's immortalising influence. They eventually reached the room with He Who Brings Hailstorms, where they had to enter the place inside the barrier and defeat the big boss.


Boss - He Who Brings Hailstorms:
undead, highly resilient
can manipulate minds of the weak in range of certain kilometres (story-only)
can raise fallen warriors in range of about a kilometre (story-only)
can re-raise fallen undead in range of about a kilometre unless he's imprisoned it's outside of his prison (anything killed in his presence just comes back with full life)
can summon hailstorms (AoE cold/impact spell)
melee single-target attack

This story gives space for puzzles, traps, artifacts various kinds of enemies (though mostly some exotic undead like mummies) and a big boss in the end. It can be placed pretty much everywhere.

Regarding items:
These are better, but I think that a few things could be changed:
Amulet of gryphon feather - make it stronger, for example completely immune to traps or almost completely
Rod of telepathy - I think that this would be misused, higher level units can easily kill higher level enemies and get a lot of easy experience, and giving these to low levels would allow quick power leveling; I was suggested to make this in Legend of the Invincibles, but I refused to add it for this reason
Some thing - enemy level-ups happen very rarely, this can pretty much disable them from getting experience; however, I am not sure how do you want to code this, I had great trouble with altering experience gain because it is given after the attack end event
Spartanian boot - hahahaha, cool
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Xudo »

Dugi wrote:I think that the tales shouldn't have standartised enemies. Every single one should have its own enemies with its own challenges. It will make them more memorable and differing from each other.
Mainline wesnoth mostly consist of same enemies. Campaigns usually last for 10 scenarios. Nevertheless, most of scenarios are memorable and different.
It would take time to create and balanse unit. If we will use this unit only once, then it will be waste of time.
To achieve feeling that all actions take place in some world, I have to reuse 60-80% of content. I agree, that tales should feature custom units. But they should be named, take actions in plot and follow general way of unit balansing. For example HTTT features Konrad, Li'sar, Delfador, Ashevire. But 90% of units are mainline ones and are reused in 5-6 other campaigns and in countless 1vs1 and 2vs2 maps.
Dugi wrote:Environment skills will require the dungeon builders to make the terrain very varied, otherwise only one environment skill will rule in the entire tale. Maybe the same environment skill could be used in different ways depending on terrain, but usable on all terrains, for example in water, it would summon a tentacle of the deep, in forest or on grass, it would raise wines to entangle the enemy, on paved terrains or interiors it would bring a shot from a siege machine and in caves, it would cause the location to cave in.
You misunderstood Enviromental Skills. I think I should write Enviromental damage skills - ones what deal damage to multiple enemies.
To correctly use them, players should hold enemies in some pattern. For example: to make sure, that Living Bomb deal maximum damage, 6 enemy units should stand in tiles, adjacent to target of spell.
Players have to use ZoC, skills with knockback effect, terrain configuration, skills with pull effect (Pull a Chain) and so on.
This is where I expect fun, not in "rotating units".
Dugi wrote:Better don't plan puzzles that way, you'd end up repeating the same puzzles over and over. New and new ideas for puzzles will come.
I agree with you about it. I'll just make some API to allow convenient creation of puzzles.
It is possible now as is, but you have to bother with countless moveto events and so on.
Dugi wrote:Regarding items:
These are better, but I think that a few things could be changed:
Amulet of gryphon feather - make it stronger, for example completely immune to traps or almost completely
Rod of telepathy - I think that this would be misused, higher level units can easily kill higher level enemies and get a lot of easy experience, and giving these to low levels would allow quick power leveling; I was suggested to make this in Legend of the Invincibles, but I refused to add it for this reason
Some thing - enemy level-ups happen very rarely, this can pretty much disable them from getting experience; however, I am not sure how do you want to code this, I had great trouble with altering experience gain because it is given after the attack end event
Regarding items:
Have you read #1 Use experience as mana.
In your example, gameplay hang around of type of damage: lightning vs poison. In Tales of Irdya, gameplay hang aroung getting and spending experience.
Experience is not used to level up at all.

To make something stronger, I can increase chance of positive effect. This is why I add "chance" part to each item. You can't balanse items without a game itself.

I need "chance" part because it will considerably increase variety of gameplay.

If all spells will always hit, then every fight will look same as any other.
But if one spell out of 4 will hit not always, then there are 2 different endings of fight.
If 2 spells out of 4 will hit not always, then there are 4 different endings.
If 3 spells out of 4 will hit not always, then there are 8 different endings.
If all 4 spells wil hit not always, then there are 16 different endings.
This is how mainline wesnoth is designed and balansed.

If you add 1 spell with "reliable" effect. There will be 5 spells (A,B,C,D,E) and player can choose 4 out of them.
If all spells will always hit, then there will be 5 different endings.
If first spell (A) will hit not always, then there will be:
1 ending in B,C,D,E combination
2 endings in A,B,C,D combination
2 endings in A,C,D,E combination
2 endings in A,B,D,E combination
2 endings in A,B,C,E combination
totally 9 endings.
If first two spells (A,B) will hit hot always, then there will be:
4 endings in A,B,C,D combination
2 endings in A,C,D,E combination
4 endings in A,B,D,E combination
4 endings in A,B,C,E combination
2 endings in B,C,D,E combination
totally 16 endings
If all spells will hit not always, then there will be:
16 endings in A,B,C,D combination
16 endings in A,C,D,E combination
16 endings in A,B,D,E combination
16 endings in A,B,C,E combination
16 endings in B,C,D,E combination
totally 80 endings
I think this is enough to notice the trend.
If I add 1 item, assuming that everything hit always, then I increase variety for (5-1) = 4 endings.
If I add 1 item, assuming that everything hit not always, then I increase variety for (80-16) = 64 endings.
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Dugi »

I agree, that tales should feature custom units. But they should be named, take actions in plot and follow general way of unit balansing.
You need to make sure that the players won't be fed up of fighting the same undead and orcs over and over, in each campaign. Enemy-only factions don't even need to be balanced, just their numbers need to be adjusted. They can be taken from other eras/campaigns, with modified properties to make them differ from the usual factions.
You misunderstood Enviromental Skills. I think I should write Enviromental damage skills - ones what deal damage to multiple enemies.
Now it makes much more sense to me. Why don't you just call it AoE to make it more understandable?
Have you read #1 Use experience as mana.
Forgot about that. You should really make that introduction with brief explanation of all changes like experience being used as mana and heroes advancing for something else.
I need "chance" part because it will considerably increase variety of gameplay.
Makes sense, but only 40% or 20% protection against a rare problem is not much an advantage - how about percentages like 70% and 90% for the enemy exp reduction and trap protection?

Still, your idea seem to be heavily dependent on story, which doesn't seem to be a well-developed part of your draft. And you don't even seem to care about this one much, considering that you didn't even bother commenting on my story offer.

Also, your items should also have some side-bonuses, like something that besides the main important effect also increases damage and some resistances a bit and so on.
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Xudo »

Dugi wrote:Enemy-only factions don't even need to be balanced, just their numbers need to be adjusted. They can be taken from other eras/campaigns, with modified properties to make them differ from the usual factions.
Adjusting number of enemies is balansing too. Assuming that hp and damage will be adjusted in each game session, I easily can take all mainline units. You are right in this.
Dugi wrote:
I need "chance" part because it will considerably increase variety of gameplay.
Makes sense, but only 40% or 20% protection against a rare problem is not much an advantage - how about percentages like 70% and 90% for the enemy exp reduction and trap protection?
I can't balanse items (including chances, damage and so on) without a game itself.
Dugi wrote:Still, your idea seem to be heavily dependent on story, which doesn't seem to be a well-developed part of your draft. And you don't even seem to care about this one much, considering that you didn't even bother commenting on my story offer.
I have not thinked about story. If I succeed implementing gameplay, then I start writing stories. If I will spread my focus on every aspect of game, I will fail everywhere.
Dugi wrote:Also, your items should also have some side-bonuses, like something that besides the main important effect also increases damage and some resistances a bit and so on.
This makes sense.
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Re: [UMC] RPG-like PvP in Wesnoth.

Post by Dugi »

I can't balanse items (including chances, damage and so on) without a game itself.
Right. Values are to be altered many times, when coding Legend of the Invincibles, many items were significantly changed, especially weakened. But I think it's easier to find which items are overpowered than which items are underpowered, if you see that everybody uses something, you can be sure that it's overpowered, but if it's used rarely, you can't tell if it's just too specialised, really bad, or just their use isn't easy to find.
I have not thinked about story. If I succeed implementing gameplay, then I start writing stories. If I will spread my focus on every aspect of game, I will fail everywhere.
I wouldn't be sure that it's the best direction to take. A slowly developing item system won't attract too many players, they would just look at it, check a few features and leave. If you make a story before adding the features, the story can be attractive itself enough to tolerate an undeveloped item/skill system. You need to have some sort of basic gameplay functionality to handle a story (which is currently a great issue in a side project of mine I am not mentioning much), but you can simply neglect a lot of possibilities and make the player units way stronger than intended to be (for reasons I prefer not to explain, this won't help much in my side project). Many quite crappy games were attractive thanks to a captivating story (that might have revealed later to be lame, but keeping the tension most of the time).
____________
Don't take it that I am critising you for everything that doesn't agree with my opinions, I frequently understand you but want to make you think about it deeper before making a decision that might ruin the whole thing.
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