The Era of Myths 5.19.0

[JW]

Holy crap I'm sorry guys.....I went on spring break and completely forgot to send Velensk the .pbl; I'll send it right after I make this post.

Any word on the svn?

Celestials are indeed their own race, but they are pretty much as close to humans as Vulcans or Klingons in Star Trek. Therians are humans; Therians have a special name because they have learned the art of shapeshifting. The Warg do not shapeshift: they are indeed wolf-like creatures that can either walk on 2 legs or 4. The Warg are not so much tree-huggers so much as they defend their homeland, which consists solely of forested areas, much of which is hilly. To this extent the Warg are "environmentalists," and they do have somewhat of that philosophy at heart.

Vampires don't need only human (Therian) blood to survive. In fact, they hardly interact with the Therians at all. It is Celestial blood they feast on generally, if they feast on humanoid blood at all. Vampires could just as easily consume the blood of animals such as deer and pig and bear and such as much as humans could eat their meat.

Also, I like the Blackfur idea.

----Also, I don't think there need to be *humans* persay in the era. Firstly, as I stated, Therians are indeed humans. Secondly, the Celestials are the major players in this era, and they are humanoid, almost identical ot humans. The only thing that really separates them is their wings (either vestigial or non-). Celestials should be a "human enough" faction for the purposes of having humans, and if that doesn't do it for ya, there's still the actual shapeshifting humans. Normal humans are boring.

[Velensk]

JW got the files to me so I'm going to post my complete list of changes I'd like to make for the next version now. Most of these will be bases solely on the low lvl units though I undersand that work on the higher lvl unit will be nessisary. @Melon Right now I'm going to focus on refining the races already in. When my changes to the existing factions slow down I will consiter adding another one (I have looked at the bugs, and I am interested).

Celestials
Crusader: healing+3, Sword Blade attack 8-2
Messanger: HP-2

Devilings
Sneak: cost=8
Cunning trait? (+1move-10%xp+1upkeep)

Therpians
lepard: claws 6-3
seprate attuned for shifters and monks
attuned for shifters=+2 ranged damage (monks stays the same)

Windsong
Gatekeeper: attack 5-4
Seeker: +2hp
Crystal: +1 damage
Weavver: +1damage on bow, +2hp, +1cost

Vampires
Fledgling: cost 13
Bloodhulk: Feeding, -2hp (should not be very hard to earn the hp back)
Gargoyal: neutral, damage 6-3
Blood apprentice: 8-2 magical arcane ranged attack (for dealing with brazeirs)

Warg
Werewolf: rename to warrior wolf
Wose: Replace with blackfur, and/or bear (might wait till artwork for blackfur is available)
Naga: Replace with something. (obviously won't happen till we figure out what)
Firespirt: rename wisp'o'will upon receiving new artwork,(obviously awaiting new artwork) some stat tweaks based on new theme.

Elementals
Magic servent: rename to windservent.
Tidal: cost=16

I've not had time to check the data I downloaded from megane, but I assume it contains all the changes that were talked about for the windsong. Anyone who wishes to help me get all this done feel free. I'd still appreciate feedback on cunning trait/bear vs blackfur, I'm also looking for ideas for a water unit for the Warg, right now my favorite idea would be to have something like the Lock Ness monster, but I'm sure that there is something better out there that I've just not thought up.

[Melon]

Since you're currently revising the existing units, I was hoping that the Therians could get to see some changes in their horribly awkward unit tree. Here's a quote from a few pages back in this thread that seemed to have gone completly overlooked (Or at the very least never got any sort of response):

While re-spriting the Therians, I couldn't help but notice just how weird their promotion tree is. Here's a few of the bigger things nagging me:

1. Serpent Therians have 4(!) promotion paths despite being a unit that you never need to buy in large quantities. The orcish assassin fulfills a similar niche and he's capped at level 2 with only a single promotion option. Not to mention the fact that a lot of those promotions are very, very similar in nature.
I would propose to remedy this in the following manner:
a) Get rid of the spitting cobra. No one at all is every going to promote their Serpents to level 3, and if they will they will certainly not go for something with a redundant ranged attack over something that slows, has more HP and higher overall damage.
b)The sandskipper, Cobra and Sea Snake are currently stupidly close in terms of stats. I would suggest a more powerful attack for the Sea Snake (Since waterbound snakes have some of the most lethal venom on the planet). And I would also suggest removing, restating and/or renaming the sandskipper. Like I've said previously the snakes don't need 4 possible branches, and I honestly don't think that the Sandskipper promotion is interesting enough to keep. If you're adamant about the snakes having 3 choices for their level 2 promotion, then why not replace the Sandskipper with a Python, a unit that sacrifices its poisonous bite in favor of a stronger impact damage strike and the ability to ambush while in a forest.

2. Rather then having a choice of a level 3 promotion for the Leopard Therians, why not have a choice for level 2 instead? Here's what that tree could look like once the units get renamed:
Therian Cat->Therian Wildcat->Therian Tiger
Therian Cat->Therian Panther (Could be renamed to Black Therian Cat or Therian Blackcat to avoid cross-species confusion)

3. Why is Therian Defender the default Therian Leader, if he doesn't even have a level 3 form? Furthermore, why do Serpent Therins have 6 promotion versions and 4 branches, while Guards (Who are the cheap, mainline units for this faction mind you!) have 1 promotion option and cap at level 2? How about at least giving them a level 3 promotion?

4. The mage and shaman branches are currently way too similar in terms of stats and should probably be at least a bit more different. I would suggest giving the Shaman more HP and stronger physical attacks then the mage but lower magic damage and fewer strikes. Another alternative could be to make one specialize in fire magic while the other specializes in ice.

[Velensk]

Here is what I have to say

1 I would like to keep the Cobra, and the Sea snake. There is no problem difrentiating their stats. I'd rather not add units right now.

2 I don't see any real reason to do this except that lvl 3s don't show up in mp much. I would rather spend my time doing more nessisary things.

3 There is no reason why it is default, however I don't see why the lack of lvl 3 advancement is a problem.

4 I see your point. I have my own idea about this when I have time I'll impliment it.

[Aethaeryn]

Last I checked, the Celestial mage has an inferior branch in every single way (HP, and one less attack).

[Neoskel]

Holy crap I'm sorry guys.....I went on spring break and completely forgot to send Velensk the .pbl; I'll send it right after I make this post.

Any word on the svn?

Celestials are indeed their own race, but they are pretty much as close to humans as Vulcans or Klingons in Star Trek. Therians are humans; Therians have a special name because they have learned the art of shapeshifting. The Warg do not shapeshift: they are indeed wolf-like creatures that can either walk on 2 legs or 4. The Warg are not so much tree-huggers so much as they defend their homeland, which consists solely of forested areas, much of which is hilly. To this extent the Warg are "environmentalists," and they do have somewhat of that philosophy at heart.

Vampires don't need only human (Therian) blood to survive. In fact, they hardly interact with the Therians at all. It is Celestial blood they feast on generally, if they feast on humanoid blood at all. Vampires could just as easily consume the blood of animals such as deer and pig and bear and such as much as humans could eat their meat.

Also, I like the Blackfur idea.

----Also, I don't think there need to be *humans* persay in the era. Firstly, as I stated, Therians are indeed humans. Secondly, the Celestials are the major players in this era, and they are humanoid, almost identical ot humans. The only thing that really separates them is their wings (either vestigial or non-). Celestials should be a "human enough" faction for the purposes of having humans, and if that doesn't do it for ya, there's still the actual shapeshifting humans. Normal humans are boring.

But you still need normal humans to explain the Windsong and Changelings. They don't need an army (except maybe in campaigns), they just need to be present in the world. Unless you want the descriptions changed to be celestial women who maybe don't grow wings and are thus pretty low in Celestial society. That could work i guess.

Also, why does the Messenger line get so crap-tastically big once it hits level 3? Are they still regular Celestials or something more?

[megane]

Just because there aren't any Generic Human units doesn't mean there aren't any generic humans around. They just don't fight the way the Loyalists do. To tell the truth, I sort of envisioned basically everything in the Era of Myths as being on a much higher power level than Default; there aren't any Human Spearmen because, relative to the vampires and shapeshifters and angels running around, they'd have about 5 hp and a 2-3 attack. Non-magical humans just don't really stand a chance in a war of this scale, so they just keep their heads down and try not to get eaten.

[Elerias]

Just because there aren't any Generic Human units doesn't mean there aren't any generic humans around. They just don't fight the way the Loyalists do. To tell the truth, I sort of envisioned basically everything in the Era of Myths as being on a much higher power level than Default; there aren't any Human Spearmen because, relative to the vampires and shapeshifters and angels running around, they'd have about 5 hp and a 2-3 attack. Non-magical humans just don't really stand a chance in a war of this scale, so they just keep their heads down and try not to get eaten.

I dont find this argument valid. In default non-magical humans are fighting huge drakes, elven archers and ghosts quite succesfully. Beings i value at the same lvl as vampires and shifters.

[JW]

Sorry in advance - this is probably going to be a long post.

Celestials
Crusader: healing+3, Sword Blade attack 8-2

[Therians]*
seprate attuned for shifters and monks
attuned for shifters=+2 ranged damage (monks stays the same)

Vampires
Blood apprentice: 8-2 magical arcane ranged attack (for dealing with brazeirs)

Elementals
Magic servent: rename to windservent.

You could probably just give the Crusader regular heals+4, but it's not a big deal either way since it was +3 before. I had considered doing that.

The +2 ranged is a really really good trait. I think +1 ranged and another bonus would be better, like -5xp to level or something. Maybe +1 hp to be like default's strong only in ranged?

I hope adding a secondary arcane attack doesn't lead to the Vamps becoming more like the Undead. As it is the units are still pretty different.

The renaming of the elemental is a great idea I would have never thought of.

Since you're currently revising the existing units, I was hoping that the Therians could get to see some changes in their horribly awkward unit tree. Here's a quote from a few pages back in this thread that seemed to have gone completly overlooked (Or at the very least never got any sort of response):

While re-spriting the Therians, I couldn't help but notice just how weird their promotion tree is. Here's a few of the bigger things nagging me:

1. Serpent Therians have 4(!) promotion paths despite being a unit that you never need to buy in large quantities. The orcish assassin fulfills a similar niche and he's capped at level 2 with only a single promotion option. Not to mention the fact that a lot of those promotions are very, very similar in nature.
I would propose to remedy this in the following manner:
a) Get rid of the spitting cobra. No one at all is every going to promote their Serpents to level 3, and if they will they will certainly not go for something with a redundant ranged attack over something that slows, has more HP and higher overall damage.
b)The sandskipper, Cobra and Sea Snake are currently stupidly close in terms of stats. I would suggest a more powerful attack for the Sea Snake (Since waterbound snakes have some of the most lethal venom on the planet). And I would also suggest removing, restating and/or renaming the sandskipper. Like I've said previously the snakes don't need 4 possible branches, and I honestly don't think that the Sandskipper promotion is interesting enough to keep. If you're adamant about the snakes having 3 choices for their level 2 promotion, then why not replace the Sandskipper with a Python, a unit that sacrifices its poisonous bite in favor of a stronger impact damage strike and the ability to ambush while in a forest.

2. Rather then having a choice of a level 3 promotion for the Leopard Therians, why not have a choice for level 2 instead? Here's what that tree could look like once the units get renamed:
Therian Cat->Therian Wildcat->Therian Tiger
Therian Cat->Therian Panther (Could be renamed to Black Therian Cat or Therian Blackcat to avoid cross-species confusion)

3. Why is Therian Defender the default Therian Leader, if he doesn't even have a level 3 form? Furthermore, why do Serpent Therins have 6 promotion versions and 4 branches, while Guards (Who are the cheap, mainline units for this faction mind you!) have 1 promotion option and cap at level 2? How about at least giving them a level 3 promotion?

4. The mage and shaman branches are currently way too similar in terms of stats and should probably be at least a bit more different. I would suggest giving the Shaman more HP and stronger physical attacks then the mage but lower magic damage and fewer strikes. Another alternative could be to make one specialize in fire magic while the other specializes in ice.

The sea snake should have a level 3. The sandskipper was meant to be the special one to be capped at level 2 (it skirmishes and has firststrike). The snake line is meant to be more versatile than your standard line, hence its many branches.

I like the choice at level 2 for the cats. I thought I said that in one of my posts, but perhaps not.

Defenders should probably have a level 3. They should be relatively weak in melee though relative to true melee units. The spear throw is what makes this unit different from the loyalist spearman, and he retains it like a javelineer. Giving him a level 3 should take into account his versatility as a mixed fighter.

The only difference in the branches is that one heals, the other does more damage. I don't see a real problem with that, though they may not have the same value. I do like the idea of specialists.....maybe that could be a split for the damge-type mage at level 3? That's actually really cool if that would be the case. I would then suggest replacing the L3 damage branch of the Therian mage with 2 separate branches of specialized damage dealers (with weaker versions of the other attack of course, to keep with RIPLB).

[Weeksy]

I think that having a trait that does different things depending on who gets it is rather unintuitive. I would much rather it was kept at +1 and the strikes/damage of the non-monk therians were reversed.

[Velensk]

What I think I'm going to end up doing is to remove attuned from monks, and give them dexterouse. It makes sense that a dexterouse monk would hit harder, and I can simpily modify attuned.

EDIT: By the way I am most of the way through all the easy changes.

EDIT2: I missed JWs most recent post. This responds to it. +2 damage is a good trait, however consiter what attacks it will be on. As long as the monk does not get it it will be on 4-2 or 3-2 attacks, bumping them up to a more respectable 6-2 and 5-2. compare with strong which bumps one and gives an additional hp. A strong guard is bumped from a 7-3 to a 9-3 at day and gives a hp on top of that. Once they lvl it becomes a problm because going from 4-3 to 6-3 is a mor major jump, however lvled up units are rare, and it won't help them take hits any better (from any melle unit).

EDIT3:Greatwizard/mystic fixed by moving greatmage line hp slightly up, and mystic line hp slightly down, and boosting great wizard lines attack (4-7 to 5-6 keep in mind tod factors) (4-10 to 5-9 keep in mind ToD factors) Now mystics olny lvl faster, and have an arcane attack. All easy changes complete.

EDIT4: After testing the new attuned, it a nice, sort of like getting dexterouse for an elven archer, but not overpowering. On the other hand, if you lvl a unit with attuned, then you have a respectable ranged unit (6-3 neutral). I don't think that it is too much of a problem, and I consiter it a feature of therpians. If real testing proves me wrong I can always change it.

[Velensk]

double post

I beleive I'm done with all balancing changes I can make untill I get more art. Not all of them can be found on that list, and some of the ones on that list I unimplimented after playing (gargoyal back to 5-3, but still neutral). I've fixed the artbugs I can see (mainly therpian defender not appearing in faction selection, and bats/falcons have their artwork back [or in falcons case they have new artwork/animation])

The things that still need to get done

-art/code for specific units (blackfur (or bear)/will'o'wisp/naga replacement)
-art for variouse things (nonessential, but nice, especialy for the therpians [new falcon looks good])
-make/test cunning trait
-numerouse unit descriptions (nonessential, spice, I've added/modified a few, but there are still many to go)

I would like to wait untill I have everything ready to release Epsilon 1, however I can't balance test anything, untill I release it. Is anyone working on any of these things if so, I'll wait untill you are finished to release Epsilon, if not then I'm just going to put it out for everyone.

[Aethaeryn]

Isn't it Alpha -> Beta -> Gamma -> Delta -> Epsilon?

[Velensk]

Doh, my mistake yes delta comes after gamma.

EDIT: Fixed in files.

[JW]

Thanks for maintaining the naming convention.

It's so hard to get good art....I never realized when I started this era that 2 years later my original faction would still be yearning for artwork....

Megane and Melon: you two are a great pair of artists to have creating masterpieces. I kinda wish Eternal was still around making sprites as well. The only thing that would make that team of artists better would be if Jetryl himself began spriting for one of the factions!!!