The Era of Myths 5.19.0

[Elerias]

I have played quite a lot survival and RPG maps and also some 1vs1 with EOM / EE+EOM and i have to agree with some points discussed here.

Windsong - very nice
Vampires - very nice, still there is the issue with bats not seen
Eelementals - missing more unit advancement, mb a little weak, not TCed
Therians - apprentice dont get any traits, falcon/therian icon not visible for me, some not TCed
Warg - dont like the art, flame sprite is like bright cake, brown shadow for stalker etc, not TCed, wose/naga doesnt fit
Celestial - nice, needs some TCing and some generic blade attack unit. Messanger is used this way but it doesnt seem to be his role.
Devlings - I dont play these so no comments here.

I dont comment the balance as i am not skilled player so its possible i am just unable to play well with the factions i find weak.

[JW]

WOW guys!!!
What an amazing explosion of discussion!

I know I haven't payed the era the attention that it needs, hence why I'll be handing it over now. It seems that the consensus is to let Velensk take over, which I am very pleased with. I also think that having multiple people with an svn+ access would be a good idea as well, because there are many changes that need to be made that can be hard for one person to keep up with - as I'm sure you've all noticed from the previous two months.

Coicidentally, Weeksy has already created an svn for the EoM, though I hardly ever used it. It would be great to use that existing tool to full advantage.

I will send Velensk the EoM.pbl file so that he can upload the new versions to the server, and he can share that with whomever he sees fit. I would also hope that Weeksy can relay the information about the svn so that more people will be able to contribute directly rather than having to go through a middle-man. I think that would hasten the process and encourage more development as it is more accessible.

I'll write my thoughts about the factions in the following post so not to overload everyone's head at once.

[JW]

Regarding the Warg:
The Warg were indeed called the Werewolves, but this name truly did not fit with what the faction actually was at the time of creation: a group of wolf-like humanoids that used weaponry. It is an unfortunate coicidence that there was a unit called "Werewolf" in the faction as well, which has led to much remaining confusion.

I wouldn't be opposed to changing to Werewolf unit to either: 1) be more like an actual werewolf; or 2) simply alter the name and perhaps description. I also have to agree that the Wose is somewhat out of place, but does relatively fit the theme. It was added as a placeholder until a new unit could be created, which didn't happen to this point.

Regarding the Therians:
I am in 200% agreement that the Therians eventually must have shapesshifting graphics. This idea was very early recognized in their development, though no artist has come along with the time and capability to do so yet. I myself am a worthless artist, else they would have been completed already - they were my baby faction when I first came to these forums.

For the attuned trait, I suppose it could reduce XP to level by 2 or so, in addition to the added damage. I'd prefer a static number than %, as it would be different than Intelligent in that manner. I haven't looked at the mage line in forever, though I trust Velensk will make the appropriate balancing changes in that regard.

Regarding the Devlings:
I think the Sneak could be nerfed back to his mixed damage form of G6 or thereabouts where his ranged did more and his melee less than it does now. If that is the case then another unit could be added that perhaps has the Rage trait from IE where the unit has 2 battles instead of Berserk's 30. Either that, or it could be a L2 upgrade from the Overgrown.

I'm sorry if I missed your descriptions. I truly thought I had added them and never rechecked. Hopefully Weeksy will provide you with svn access soon, or you could send them to Velensk to add.

Regarding the Celestials:
I would be happy to see the Crusader get healing again. The change was more of an experiment - which obvoiusly has proven to be a step in the wrong direction. Also, I'd love to see the Zealot changed. I don't like the unit concept: it doesn't really fit with the idea of an empire-type army that the Celestials command. It was kind of just thrown in for the sake of art and to give them a cheap ranged. I would prefer a crossbow unit if it is to be replaced, probably a mixed-fighter that does few heavy hits ranged; perhaps 5-3 melee (shortsword), 8-2 ranged (crossbow). Maybe 4-3, 9-2 (more interesting) with cost around 14-16g depending on hp, movetype, etc.

Also, I've wanted to change the Crusader's sword to blade, with a special to harm Vampires/Undead type units more. If someone can figure that out in a fashion that is workable, please add it and perhaps raise his damage back to 5-4 or something around there.

Regarding the Windsong and Elementals:
I also have not played high level Windsong much, though I'm sure there is some rebalancing needed. Megane is doing an excellent job with the art.

The Elementals do need L3s, but they had no art. I was sick of units having bad art in other factions, so I didn't add higher level duplicate art units for this one. Which has turned out to be the better situation? Do people prefer having limited, well-fleshed-out units; or do they prefer many units that are less crisp? I honestly don't know the answer, hence the variation between factions.

Regarding the Vampires:
I really like these guys, and I had Feeding coded on one version at some point, but it got lost somehow - and it should be added. I also think it would be good if the L2 Obedient trait could change upkeep from 2 to 1 instead of 0. If that were possible the melee reduction would be unnecessary.

The Gargoyle should have its own race, I agree. Also, I hope that the trifecta of Undead traits is eventually split to do the Vampires justice.




I'm unsure of what else I haven't addressed. I apologize as I've surely missed a few points again. I've tried to address as many as I could remember.

[Neoskel]

Gargoyles seem kinda useless and weird as they are now. How would it affect balance if they had steadfast and no other changes (except maybe cost)? That would make them a good defending unit as befits a gargoyle. The highest evasion only on castle already hints at an affinity for castles (which is very befitting). Maybe their moves could be reduced by 1 as well, since bets are there for all the vampires' scouting needs.

I'm also using the mistress/duchess as a special leader only unit by bumping the mistress up to lvl 2 (so the duchess is lvl 3) and giving the bite attack the backstab and plague of the sire's bite. Also nixed the cleaver and made the knife hit 6-4 and 8-4 instead.

Thoughts?



I also dropped some Therian art in the art thread if you're interested.

[Aethaeryn]

Regarding the Warg:
The Warg were indeed called the Werewolves, but this name truly did not fit with what the faction actually was at the time of creation: a group of wolf-like humanoids that used weaponry. It is an unfortunate coicidence that there was a unit called "Werewolf" in the faction as well, which has led to much remaining confusion.

I wouldn't be opposed to changing to Werewolf unit to either: 1) be more like an actual werewolf; or 2) simply alter the name and perhaps description. I also have to agree that the Wose is somewhat out of place, but does relatively fit the theme. It was added as a placeholder until a new unit could be created, which didn't happen to this point.

What did you think about my Abomination monster idea for a regenerating tank to replace the wose? Could even have both blade (claws/teeth) and impact (tail).

I think maybe a shark unit (or a hybrid of a shark and something else, like a wolf) doing blade damage would be a good replacement for the naga. The shark would have the merman movetype (making it move slowly and be just about useless on land), but modified a bit (for example, better defense in deep water).

[Melon]

My faction is nearing its completion point. It's changed drastically since my original suggestion a few pages back and I'd like to hear out some more opinions before I take the final steps towards making it playable.

A brief overview of the faction and its units, as well as an up-to date unit tree and a playable beta are all available here.

As it currently is, I think with some minor re-scripting and a couple of extra sprites it should be ready for the next EOM release.

---

And while we're discussing the EOM races, here's my personal opinions of how they currently stand and what should be changed:

Devlings - Really nice faction both in terms of the artwork and the concept. However, the faction feels way too small, there's only 5 units to choose from and 3 possible leaders. I would suggest adding an additional unit and expanding the devling sneak tree to at least level 2. Another thing to consider are the names, since most units utilize multiple devlings the names should account for all of the members of the team. Needs TC.
Windsong - I love the artwork and the concept, don't have any issues at all with these guys. Nice work Megane!
Vampires - This faction works a whole lot better after the upgrade in my opinion. Still needs to have visible bats and the Mistress added.
Elementals - The artwork and concept is good, but as it was stated previously Vinetigers and Golems could use a level 3 promotion (I don't think the unicorns are that badly in need of one however). Though none of the units have TC, I can't really think of a clever way to go about adding it.
Celestial - I haven't really played around with these guys too much, but as far as I can tell they're relatively solid. Artwork could use a slight improvement for some units, I might get around to doing this myself if I ever find the time. Also need TC.
Warg - In my opinion the faction's a huge mess right now. The artwork needs a MAJOR cleanup. Woses and nagas need to be taken out altogether. Balance should be rethought.
Therians - Another huge mess of a faction, I would suggest rethinking the better chunk of it. I've made an extensive post back on page 47 of this thread that listed some of the bigger problems I had with the units. Aside from that they need a major graphical upgrade and I honestly don't think that I'm ever going to have the time to do this myself (The fact that I just really dislike the idea behind this faction is a pretty big part of the reason behind this).

I honestly think that the Therians and the Warg should to be taken out until at least half of their flaws get fixed, but maybe that's just me.

Aside from what I've stated previously some units are missing attack animations and sounds. I can't recall exactly which ones but I do remember that there were quite a few of them.

[Weeksy]

I envision the Therians as costumed a bit like their animal counterparts, but only very vaguely. Serpent therian in a robe that flares when they attack, with two blades held like fangs. The robe stretches out behind them more and more as they level, until when they're higher levels you can't tell that they're not giant snakes. And so on. For the Warg, I think replacing the wose would be good. Something based off of an electric eel might be interesting for the faction's water unit.

[Velensk]

Regarding the Warg:
The Warg were indeed called the Werewolves, but this name truly did not fit with what the faction actually was at the time of creation: a group of wolf-like humanoids that used weaponry. It is an unfortunate coicidence that there was a unit called "Werewolf" in the faction as well, which has led to much remaining confusion.

I wouldn't be opposed to changing to Werewolf unit to either: 1) be more like an actual werewolf; or 2) simply alter the name and perhaps description. I also have to agree that the Wose is somewhat out of place, but does relatively fit the theme. It was added as a placeholder until a new unit could be created, which didn't happen to this point.

I think prehaps something based of a bear would be more appropriate for the wose replacement. I think the easiest way to fix the werewolf would be to rename it warrior wolf or something simular (would have to rename it's advancements) werewolf advancments ought to be chaotic. I think that although the electric eel idea is cool, however I think that some sort of shark or preditary whale would be more fitting of the theme. Or possibly we give them Nessy (the loch ness monster) as an expensive, but deadly water unit. The other unit that does not realy feel right to me is the flame spirit. I think it would be more fitting if we changed the name to will-o-wisp, and changed the artwork.

Regarding the Devlings:

I do not beleive that the sneak needs to be nerfed yet, what it needs right now is a price increase.
I'm still waiting for someone to comment on my proposed trait for devilings.

Regarding the Celestials:

I'd simpily keep the arcane attack as is, and add a 6-3 blade attack and healing.

Regarding the Vampires:

I think the problem with the obediant trait is that it is good on one unit, and bad on the rest mostly. On a blood hulk it is great, those things drain your upkeep quickly, and the slower lvling and less hp don't drag you down to much, but on any other unit it makes the unit very frail, and worth avoiding giving kills too, just for the potential of an extra gold a turn. I think that it would be better if as you said it decreased upkeep by 1, and did not offer any negitives.

[Aethaeryn]

I honestly think that the Therians and the Warg should to be taken out until at least half of their flaws get fixed, but maybe that's just me.

I agree, both need a major redo (but probably not as dramatic as I suggested) and they won't really be missed too badly while they're gone. In my opinion, for the sake of EoM polish, we should focus on finishing the ones that have art/balance and then add these back in once they meet the quality of the rest of the era.


EDIT: By the way, if we use multiple people with SVN access, I think Melon, Velensk, megane, and I should have access. It would be easier if megane could tweak Windsong directly, and Melon for art for a lot of the factions. The dramatic changes should be discussed here, but I can fix a lot of bugs I come across or issues that are generally accepted (such as feeding for blood hulk) and some polishing matters (e.g. descriptions for each unit and for the races). Who is controlling the SVN? Who else should get access?

[JW]

I honestly think that the Therians and the Warg should to be taken out until at least half of their flaws get fixed, but maybe that's just me.

I agree, both need a major redo (but probably not as dramatic as I suggested) and they won't really be missed too badly while they're gone. In my opinion, for the sake of EoM polish, we should focus on finishing the ones that have art/balance and then add these back in once they meet the quality of the rest of the era.

I'm sorry, but the fact that the Era of Myths was originally built on the Therian and Warg factions alone makes me strongly object to their removal. I would much rather see the factions be polished as quickly as possible. If this is solely an art concern then this is a problem that must be addressed across the board, not only with the Warg and Therian factions. Granted these 2 factions are perhaps the weakest in this regard, but this is mainly due to later factions being added to the EoM already having art before being included (Celestials excluded). The Aberration faction that was planned as a major driving force in one of my campaign ideas has not been created yet due to the fact that there is 0 art for the faction. Since the concepts hadn't cemented and other art was needed, this project has been put on the backburner while other factions have been developed.

I see these factions as essential to the Era of Myths as I have built and forseen it:
Celestials
Warg
Vampires
Therians

These factions I see as strong additions conceptually to the era that I did not envision at its creation:
Windsong

And these factions I see as more additions for flavor than adding anything substantive to the plotline of the era itself:
Elementals
Devlings

Therefore, if any factions are to be removed I would prefer it be 1 or both of the latter group - though I would rather keep them all if possible.

[megane]

I don't really see a reason to take them out; sure, they could use work, but they're more than playable, and "it could be better" is a vastly different thing from "it doesn't work."

That said, I'd be willing to at least try and get these two factions going art-wise; my problem is that, well, I don't think I can do animals ^^;

In my opinion, what should be done here is: get the Warg and Therians set up the way you guys think would be best, stats-wise, and let the artwork come as it comes.

[DDR]

I am making a campaign with the devlings... it would be really nice if you left them in.

[Espreon]

Yeah, and I am making a campaign with the Elementals, so it would be really nice if you left them in as well!

[Neoskel]

Could one of the maintainers please check the art thread? I put some stuff there and i'd like to know just how useful it is so i can get the right direction...

[Aethaeryn]

JW: Perhaps you should give all the story ideas you have on the Therians/Warg so we can work on redoing their lines/arts without diverging too far from your original intent?