The Era of Myths 5.19.0

[Nebiros]

Just a couple notes

Elemental vs Elemental is a bit of a problem, because elementals don't have anything that is very good at killing animated rock or brazier creations, except tidals and they are limited by the need to be in water.

Elementals in general have a problem with their lack of ranged attacks on land, IMO.

Much like they really needed the rock at L1, I think they might likewise (or even more so, really) need the wind herder; except that that's still impact, which has resist issues against woses, trolls, etc. Perhaps it needs a thunder attack as well... less base damage, but magic and a different damage type. 7-2 magic fire... then you tank the rock with more rocks or BCs while shooting it with wind herders, sort of the way Northerners kill trolls in Default. It doesn't help that rocks also heavily resist fire, though. Maybe a blizzard attack that did cold damage would be better. Cold is more versatile except against skels/ghosts, which are already handled well by BCs.

Then the L2 could branch between the Zephyr (stronger wind, no blizzard) and the Boreas (stronger blizzard, no impact wind).

But then you need to either eliminate the razorbird line or make it separately recruitable too; it barely makes sense as an alternate advancement of the magic servant, let alone as the sole advancement. Allow the L0 servant to level into *any* of the level 1s of the basic elements (BC, rock, wind herder, tidal)? That'd certainly be something other factions don't do. (The razorbird would then be an entirely separate line.) And it seems in keeping with the servant's unformed nature that it could develop (or be developed) in any direction.

Let me know if these suggestions are too radical - it depends on where you think the balance of the era is, still up in the air or close to settled.

[megane]

I had a unit concept which might help with a few of the Elementals' problems, such as their poor ranged abilities and inability to deal with certain resists; I conceived of it as a Thunder Elemental, but it's of course up to change.

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"Thunder Elemental"
hp: 23-30
5mp, elusivefly

15-1 ranged arcane (or fire, or cold... depends on what you feel the faction needs -- the concept can be changed to fit) marksman/magic (or 19-1 without a special)

Possibly a weak melee attack.

Perhaps the Elemental trees need a general rewrite. The changes involved would, of course, be fairly significant, but it may be for the better of the faction; there's only so much tweaking can do if the basics are flawed.

So, here's the current tree:

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-Unicorn
--Silver

-Tidal
--Undine
---Tempest
--Crab
---Shell

-Rock
--Golem

Servant
-Razorbird
--Thunderbird
-Herder
--Zephyr

-Vine Beast
--Tiger

-Brazier
--Furnace
---Lava
--Wisp
---Ghost

Here's a possible new one:

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-Unicorn
--Silver

-Tidal
--Undine
---Tempest
--Crab
---Shell

Servant
-any of Brazier, Rock, Tidal, Herder

-Brazier
--Wisp
---Ghost
--Furnace
---Lava

-"Thunder Elemental"
--Razorbird
---Thunderbird

-Vine Beast
--Tiger
---Vine Guardian*

-Rock
--Golem

-Herder
--Zephyr
---Gale Warden*

* The lack of lv3's is crippling to the Elementals in long-term situations such as campaigns and survivals; letting a couple more go all the way up might fix this

That's 8 recruits, same as Loyalists. The Razorbird line would have to be reworked to fit with the new thingy above, and we'd need two new lv3's, but hopefully it'd better represent the faction's concept of having a large number of highly specialized units. A possible problem is that they end up with 3 flying recruits, which is quite a bit, but compare drakes xD

[JW]

The Prophetess (and Ascendant in Empowered Myths) should be the default leader for Windsong when you select the faction. As it has leadership and heal +8, it is both the natural healer and the natural leader. It is therefore by far the wisest choice for a non-random leader (where you'd probably choose for leadership or healing, and this has both). It even slows in its one attack, it's the ultimate defensive leader and Windsong are all about defense.

In addition, the current default choice (the Savant) does not have any melee so would be a very poor choice for a leader - any berserking unit (e.g. Chaos Hound in EE+EoM+Default or even just the Ulfserker (EoM+Default)) could completely destroy your leader in one hit. I've actually seen this happen before.

In conclusion, the Prophetess has better survivability than the current default leader choice, leadership, and healing. It therefore makes the best leader choice and should thus be the default choice. This is similar to why the Lieutenant is the default leader for Loyalists, Elvish Captain for Rebels, and Drake Flare for Drakes.

EDIT:
On the issue of separate races for the same race: It looks extremely messy/buggy on the list. Perhaps try "Water Elemental," "Fire Elemental," etc., instead of repeat lists of the race.

Also, you should do what EE did for the new race line under the unit type. For example, when it says "Windsong" on the right, it should instead say "Windsong Human" just like in EE it says "Sidhe Elf" - little things like these make the faction more polished and consistent.

Finally, mainline races now have descriptions in the help file. It would be helpful if EoM races also had this.

I think you're right about the efault leader. It's also the coolest. About the race issue, I think it's actually more complicated than the DA as all elementals must get the trait ""elemental". I know you didn't specifically mention this. Sorry about the late reply.

[Weeksy]

Isn't it possible to just have each elemental/vampire unit have its own set of macros for the traits it gets? (well, for the vampires just the hulk and the level 0.)

[JW]

Nebiros and megane: I had thought about doing the same thing with the MS as I did with the MP. Basically scrapping it and dropping a L2 line down. I was also coincidentally of making the Zephyr's ranged tornado cold. It kinda makes sense. As much sense as blade for sure. I'd also scrap the thunderbird...it doesn't really add much.

Hopefully, with enough time, someone would redo the Elementals to add TC and draw L3s for most of the units. But yes, you're right that the conceptual bassis for the faction is pretty hodge-podge. I just grabbed all the units from the summoners era and threw them together in the most logical stew I could conceptualize at the time. Time has also shown that it did not have the best order.

Also, you're right that the rock needs a nerf. it was intended to have such great resists because it was not recruitable. Well now it is.

Sorry for lumping my response together, but its late and I'm sleepy.

[Velensk]

Even if you give the Elementals the option of recruiting hgiher lvl magic servents, let them keep the option of recruting the magic servents. It's the olny way elementals have of gaining a good offences, by maintaining a ecconomic advantage with lvl 0s with a ranged attack, forcing their enemy to have to attack them, and they are fine at defending.

EDIT: just thought of something, the dust devil from UtBS would fit the elemental theme very well, it even has a sort of "desert home" It would have to be fairly expensive though, and has no lvled up form.

[Aethaeryn]

Also, you're right that the rock needs a nerf. it was intended to have such great resists because it was not recruitable. Well now it is.

It would be interesting if the rock gets less HP instead of less resists. Would make it an original defensive unit and perhaps make elementals more original.

[Espreon]

I'd also scrap the thunderbird...it doesn't really add much.

Scrap the thunderbird? Thats a shame as it is my favorite elemental...

Oh and BTW I am almost done revising the elementals just need to work on the Undine and Tempest Spirit and need to unit all the elemental races into one and to make it so that certain elementals only get certain gems and they will be ready . Oh and are you sure about making the Wind Herder line's tornado attack cold because if you really want to just tell me and I will make it cold.

[Aethaeryn]

I think you're right about the efault leader. It's also the coolest. About the race issue, I think it's actually more complicated than the DA as all elementals must get the trait ""elemental". I know you didn't specifically mention this. Sorry about the late reply.

I think the idea posted after mine to use trait macros probably could work for the multiple-races issue. I know something works as nowhere outside of EoM are there duplicate races.

What about the polishing idea of changing the race description on the sidebar? For instance, where it says "Windsong" under the name of the "Windsong Gatekeeper" it would say instead "Windsong Human" to show that they're not actually their own species but are just a group of humans. I know EE does this with Sidhe (it appears as "Sidhe Elf" on the sidebar but in the help they are still "Sidhe") and little things like this make the era look more complete.

Also, maybe where it says "Tidal" it could say "Water Elemental" instead of "Elemental." Although this might require splitting the races, if they're going to be split anyway, you might as well categorize them by element type. This again would make it look less messy.

EDIT: One more point, the Sky Shard right now is just about useless. I think it should be given 60% defense and basically become an elusive flier like the bat. Then it would have a defensive purpose as it would be hard to kill, but it would still not be as bad as the bat (which is worth 13g). As of now, the sky shard (even with teleport) is useless because once you teleport it, it will die. At least as an elusive flier it would dodge more hits and become a nuisance unit like the bat. (Yes, I can picture a swordsman trying to kill a little crystal that keeps moving around quickly every time he takes a swing at it).

[Espreon]

I think the idea posted after mine to use trait macros probably could work for the multiple-races issue. I know something works as nowhere outside of EoM are there duplicate races.

There are no need for extra macros, I am revising the Elementals and have resolved the multiple race issue by using the "ignore_race_traits" WML code. So the traits a unit can recieve and probability of obtaining a certain trait can be defined from the unit's cfg file. So by using these methods I can shove all the Elementals in one race.

[JW]

There are no need for extra macros, I am revising the Elementals and have resolved the multiple race issue by using the "ignore_race_traits" WML code. So the traits a unit can recieve and probability of obtaining a certain trait can be defined from the unit's cfg file. So by using these methods I can shove all the Elementals in one race.

Great! If they all still get the "Elemental" trait that makes them nonliving, that's perfect.

Also, Aeth: I think you're right about the display names. It would look more polished that way. You're also probably right about the crystal. He'd have to maintain a lower def on village like the bat though perhaps, like the bat - though he does not have 8 moves like him.

[Aethaeryn]

There are no need for extra macros, I am revising the Elementals and have resolved the multiple race issue by using the "ignore_race_traits" WML code. So the traits a unit can recieve and probability of obtaining a certain trait can be defined from the unit's cfg file. So by using these methods I can shove all the Elementals in one race.

Great! If they all still get the "Elemental" trait that makes them nonliving, that's perfect.

Also, Aeth: I think you're right about the display names. It would look more polished that way. You're also probably right about the crystal. He'd have to maintain a lower def on village like the bat though perhaps, like the bat - though he does not have 8 moves like him.

50% village defense (as it is more into this world than elsewhere when it is in a place where it teleports) and 60% everywhere else? Hopefully that's enough, though right now Windsong have only as many recruits as Drake (least in mainline) and one of them is useless.

[Aethaeryn]

I keep coming up with things I find, this time related to Empowered Myths:

Windsong Scribes (or at least Savants) can be strong but they don't have any melee until lvl 3, and even then that's only if you take one of two branches. They thus suffer the old Dark Adept problem of strong ranged-only units, but even more useless.

Also, the prices aren't even remotely balanced in Empowered Myths. How about going for doubling the recruitment price of the lvl 1 it affects? You're also missing the emissary lvl 2 and sky shard lvl 1 in Empowered Myths for Windsong.

[megane]

Windsong Scribes can be strong but they don't have any melee until lvl 3, and even then that's only if you take one of two branches. They thus suffer the old Dark Adept problem of strong ranged-only units, but even more useless.

The Scribe line gets dextrous instead of strong; what's needed here is for these lines:

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ignore_race_traits=yes
{TRAIT_QUICK}
{TRAIT_INTELLIGENT}
{TRAIT_RESILIENT}
{TRAIT_DEXTROUS}

to be put into the cfg's for the Savant and Runeforger (and optionally the Arbiter and Librarian, though those have melee). I guess I didn't consider the fact that they can be recruited in AoH and AoL.

[Aethaeryn]

Windsong Scribes can be strong but they don't have any melee until lvl 3, and even then that's only if you take one of two branches. They thus suffer the old Dark Adept problem of strong ranged-only units, but even more useless.

The Scribe line gets dextrous instead of strong; what's needed here is for these lines:

Code: Select all

ignore_race_traits=yes
{TRAIT_QUICK}
{TRAIT_INTELLIGENT}
{TRAIT_RESILIENT}
{TRAIT_DEXTROUS}

to be put into the cfg's for the Savant and Runeforger (and optionally the Arbiter and Librarian, though those have melee). I guess I didn't consider the fact that they can be recruited in AoH and AoL.

Yep. Edited my first post to clarify that it was the lvl 2 scribe. And yes, the prices aren't too balanced in Windsong "Empowered Myths" (and it's lacking the lvl 1 sky shard and one of the two lvl 2 couriers).

Oh, one more EoM issue: the thinblood and its lvl 2 (the half blood) are indistinguishable from each other in sprites, but if you compare them closely they are separate sprites.