Conquest 2.0 - on 1.8 server

[Mabuse]

more general changes:
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- you will not longer be able to recruit units in a city that has an enemy unit adjacent to it.
(exception is enemy ships, so adjacentenemy ships wont stop you from recruiting there)

this was some point to discussion, but hands down, its simply a bug exploit.
it doesnt make sense either. since usually you can only take a city and recruit on next turn. why woud you be able to recruit if you suicide a unit on another.

btw i have thought about this a little bit more ...
.. since its only about to avoid the "suicide" exploit, UNITS simply LOSE THEIR ATTACK on capture a City.
due to this there wont be suicide exploit,but you will be able to recruit units in that city on your NEXT TURN
(even if there a enemy units adjacent to it)

it woudl be abd if you cant produce units in a city on a regular turn, i.e. next turn after you took that city.

because if you wouldnt be able to do, SEA INVASIONS would be impossible to perform.

- so, instead of making big changes units will simply lose their attack on capture

elvish_sovereign wrote:
One more thing: in the south part of the Wesnoth map, there is a region called "Than". Don't you mean "Tahn"?

ok, will get changed

Hey mabuse, dont you think Conquest needs a something like a element of suprise ...I mean give the weaker army the change to surprise i bigger one !? The addon is really good, but since its based on RISK game, the game lacks on "turning points" just like the original one. I hope you understand what a i mean...

yes, i know what you mean --
in RISK you get "cards" by conquering a LAND. If you have a certain combination of Cards you can change these into getting a load of units, depending on rule set these may be fix amounts, or ever increasing amount

however, this feature dont give the weaker player an advantage, it gives perhaps the active player an advantage -
however, active aplayers are also at an advantage in CONQUEST

i have thought about SPECIAL UNITS, called HEROES that might show up (and may be bought), in certain situations ...
however,m this ned to be specified more. (maybe its a bad idea)

but tbh, the game wont take a direction where the weaker player (when he is clearly losing and dont see a chance) be able to turn the tide. also card-combinations in risk cant do that

the game will get more depth and thus be different from risk, it is already different from risk.

if someone thinks i take it too far, and the game doesnt have somethin in commen with the original, i may make my own mod (based on the current conquest)

[Hiebe]

If we really wanted to we could make a new mod but still has the same ideas of conquest but in depth and has a lot more choices involved. I thought of different senarios that people could play like Civil War or WW2 , but with that come many different kinds of units like Germans could use fast, strong tanks, where Russia would have cheap/many infantry. I know i dont have any modding skills but i would help with building maps if anyone else wants to try it.

[Lich_Lord]

Just to bring this up again, every time I try to play Europe conquest, it makes me dc. I tried to play a game with 6, and we got everybody, but then when we started every single one of us dc I think. (though I'm not sure since I dc). I use a mac, but some of the other players were using pc, and they said that they dc too, so somebody might want to see if it can be fixed.

[oesis]

I'm not sure if you've implemented it yet, but I hope you don't take away the ability of units to suicide in villages and recruit. It might not be realistic but its an interesting feature and taking it away would remove some of the complexity of the game as well as giving fewer options when attacking.

[Mabuse]

ok, now i have a bit more time on my hand atm.

so first the idea of "turn the tides":
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I mean give the weaker army the change to surprise i bigger one !? The addon is really good, but since its based on RISK game, the game lacks on "turning points" just like the original one. I hope you understand what a i mean...

basically somethign like this wont happen. i not even sure if somehting like that is implemented in "the original one". the better player will and should win. implementing "turning points" so the weaker player gets into a strong position makes the game kinda pointless. nobody needs to play good then and develope good strategies then, right ?

so something like: "i can do whatever and can win" wont happen.

next point:
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but since its based on RISK game

well, it is RISK inspired. but if we look closer the only thing CONQUEST has in common with risk is the region boni, and maybe the random distribution of the villages (in random game option). everthing else is already "unrisk".

and the game wont make several steps backward and become risk clone, instead it may make huge steps foward and become a mod with rich strategic and tacical options. (without becomeing unkiss)

at leaat i have some ideas that may make the game more interesting -

I'm not sure if you've implemented it yet, but I hope you don't take away the ability of units to suicide in villages and recruit. It might not be realistic but its an interesting feature and taking it away would remove some of the complexity of the game as well as giving fewer options when attacking.

nothing is implemented yet.
since to make an army lose its ability to attack on city capture is also no good solution.


well, the main reason is not that it is "unrealistic" (who cares about that), instead its just unintuitive and unfair. you dont get this game mechnism if you play the first time (while all others are wuite self explanatory). its just something like: "well, it wasnt intended, but its a nice exploit"

i have thought more about the "problem" and the main reason for its being a problem is that you can use freshly recruited units to attack other (nearby) units.

hands down - it doesnt make any sense. why do new troops have just 1 move (that they even get 1 move is just to make it so that they can get away from the recruiting point) but a full attack ?

so the final solution will be that you can recruit without any limit (you can suicide and recruit no matter if there are adjacent units or not) but fresh recruits wont be able to attack any longer

so new recruits will just have 1 move and no attacks in next version most likely.
this seems to me the best and most intuitive solution. so yu can stil recrtuit new units in freshly conquered towns (if you can manage to suicide the capturing unit), but you wont be able to attack with them.

[Mabuse]

another point:

a new idea is that Host can chose to turn on a "RUIN" OPTION.

this will randomly distribute a certain number of RUINS or SITES across the map, which are dispayled as MONOLITHS, DWARVEN DOORS or whatever.

the sites may contain special items, gold, special entities, allies and will be always guarded by an (invisible) Unit, you can only see the unit when standing adjacent to it, and you must defeat it. (to look what is there you may sacrifice a militia). the monsters will be strong though.

if you can defeat it you can grab the treasure on it.

this will be another random element that may make each map a bit unique




EDIT:
building up cities will be more expensive than 5 gold
maybe 10 or something.


EDIT 2:
Veteran Ranks (gained by reinforcing) wil be a bit easier to get, you only need 12 XP now for 1 veteran rank (so a units which has 24 XPP left after reinforcing gets 2 veteran ranks)




EDIT 3:
LAST BUT NOT LEAST:
If you want to make conquest map, then open map editor and make one, i will see what i can do to implement it into the mod.


EDIT4:
Reinforcing may become a bit (very slightly) cheaper.

[oesis]

I just want to point out a potential flaw I see in not allowing units to attack the turn they are recruited. If an enemy kills a unit you have on a village but cant take it, you wont be able to retaliate directly, you will have to recruit then wait another turn. This means an enemy unit could be safe hanging around next to your village, which seems odd.

[Mabuse]

does it seem odd in "original" wesnoth if freshly recruited units cant attack ?
If yu stand next to the recruiting keep and a fresh unit cant attack you ? is it odd ?
i think not. imo its intuitive, in opposition i see the "use your freshly recruited units" to directly take part in the offense/action as odd.

also, probably you probably should have some other guys in that area left.
thats called support.

hands down, people just got used to it, in any way it should have been fixed from day 1 on.
then it woudl have never been an "issue", it would be just like that, and thats it.

because its kinda bad, if people dont need to play the "back your offense up with support"-game,
instead do the "suicide a weak unit and kill all sourrounding enemies with fresh recruits, so you can use your new money to pimp your offense by 100%"-trick

i kinda wanna improve the gameplay a bit, and this thiingy is just annoying, since its an exploit which has a lot of impact, because it leads to an odd situation, which cant be foreseen from what you have on "board", so you cant prepare for it, or something, just try to avoid. normally you see what you enemy has and you can prepare. in this case the enemy player can bring new recruits directly into the action and this is in terms of gameplay kinda annoying, especially if this is not in ALL situations the case.

imagine if i would say: ok, new recruits have full moves and can attack on their turn.
this woudl be of course disastrous, if units pop out of nowhere (ok, cities) and directly take part in the action. all tactical planning woudl be obsolete. people woudl think its lame, since its not intuitive, instead its unfair, since yu cant prepare for something that you cant see on your turn.


since this is just a bug exploit the area that the units can effect is only one/two tiles radius around a city, but its still bad enough. imo, units must be seen before and players have to be able to react on them (retreat/engage/notice) before they can participe in the game (do ations)




EDIT:
just forgot to mention:
i plan to add also another kind of DOCKS, which can be used to BOARD/UNBOARD water units
these arent cities, and will cost 4 moves to use.

[Mabuse]

btw, there may be another change (along with the "fresh recruits cant atatck on their turn") and this will relate to following problem:

the number of units which can be recruited in a city is limited by the number of flat hexes around the unit (or hills/woods if there are elves). a human city sourrounded by hills, can only recruit 1 unit per round.

i think its kinda bad, and to make the whole thing more related to the wesnoth standards i wil chage it to a "right click to adjacent hex/city hex" thing. players can right click on the hex which the recruited unit should appear, only city or adjacent hexes will have this effect of course. new recruits have 0 moves and 0 attacks.

according to this, REINFORCE will work the same (to be consistent), you can also reinforce units which are adjacent to a city. reinforce wil reduce the moves of a unit to 0 then (move of 1 is still required (except for ships), so reinforce costs 1 move basically), adjacent enemy units will prevent reinforcing (adjacent to the unit which shold be reinforced)

so in one of the future versions recruitment will change in a way that you have to right click on the hex that you want to have the units on, new recruits have 0 moves and 0 attacks
(similar to thenormal wesnoth recruiting, but the castle hexes are the hexes adjacent to the cities)

with this you can also recruit in every city the same number of units (ships can be only recruited on city or adjacent water hexes, land units cant be reecruited on water hexes)



EDIT:
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since older players are often less flexible than new players, i wil make it that units recruited on the city hex still have 1 movement left, same goes for unts that gets reinforced on the city hex. so basically u can kep your old recruitment gameplay ... and take the new recruit options into account once you are ready for it

[Hiebe]

I have been wondering for awhile that why dont any of the maps we play have forts or castle on them? or if you could build them with the workers for extra defenses if you wnated (or workers could build or chop down forest for to be use with or against the elves they will get gold for cutting down trees )

[Mabuse]

have been wondering for awhile that why dont any of the maps we play have forts or castle on them?

point to consider.

since all maps (or at least all of my maps) get overworked i may add castles to them
chopping down woods (or whatever, for money or whatever) wont happen since its to much "clicky clicky" without much benefit.


2)
what will in any case happen to all maps is that the region boni gets reduced. a lot probably, since they are atm way too high. the region bonus is atm higher than the income from the cities, which is bad for the gameplay. to defeat an opponent you basically have to take away his region and then you can almost ensure a victory.

also players that gets region boni quickly have too high advantages.
(atm region boni are about factor 1.5 to 1.2 (4 cities, bonus 6 for example is factor 1.5)

but i will follow more the "original risk" in this case and reduce the region boni to factor 0.5/0.75 to 1 -- 4 cities, bonus 2 is factor 0.5 for example)


3)
imaginable is also tactical "stances" for the units, so you may "entrench" your units and get +10% defense, but only half movement, may be restricted to infantry though.

so tons of ideas.. keep more comming, im open for suggestions as usual

[Lich_Lord]

About the bonuses, well, sure bonuses might give more gold then villages, until you have workers, and then the villages give you more gold then the actual bonus. So I don't think the bonus should be reduced, or else the importance of the bonus in the game would be lost, and people would simply care about villages, and not whether they had a bonus or not.

[Hiebe]

ok im trying to make a new map but i keep getting stuck :/ i want to make a middle earth map but in the maps i've found it would have to be huge.

either way another map would be awesome

also entrench would be cool but i think the unit should not be able to move. you could hae a general running around in the middle of your bonus and may not even get a hit on it

i think building stuff with pheasents eem good but only to the war effort stuff


or you could go towards the idea of emprie earth or age of empires where you build certian building for different units of course the map would be life sized though

[Mabuse]

@Lich lord
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i see.

btw, i made a slight thinking mistake, of course in "original risk" the bonus is also higher than normal income from countries (because you dont get one army per land, instead you get one army per 3 lands )

still there are a lot of games which work well without any region boni, but in fact i think a reduction to a factor of about 1.0 - 1.2 is ok.

so a 2 city region wil be about 2 gold bonus (as it already is), a 4 city region will have about 4-5 gold bonus. there will be a slight reduction.

@Hiebe:
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also entrench would be cool but i think the unit should not be able to move.

yes, i also think thats is good. so units in def stance get 0 moves (on their next turn that is, and as long the option is activated)
also entrench will only work, if there are no adjacent enemy units ....
(as soon as activated you lose all remaining moves, and start next turn with 0 moves)

i think building stuff with pheasents eem good but only to the war effort stuff
or you could go towards the idea of emprie earth or age of empires where you build certian building for different units of course the map would be life sized though

hmm, i think peasant be able to build castles, ok.
but no other buildings, unless you have a good idea


other buildings for units is imo no good ideas as it oly makes the game somewhat complicated.

insetad i have thought to be able to "buy" recruitment options for certain cities, so you start with a basic set of recruit-options and can buy more (for certain cities) if wanted
(but atm i think its not a good idea, however, having different recruit options in the cites wil of course increase the amount of strategic choices)

[Hiebe]

i think anything is possible for conquest. i sure hope it gets bigger and becomes something everyone wants and knows how to play