Extended Era revived - version 36
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Time for a small round of balancing suggestions:
It seems to me that the Aragwaithi Protection ability should be changed so that, like leadership, it only affects units of lower level. Watching a Guard take only 5 damage from the blows of a Deathblade at night convinced me of this.
As was pointed out to me by nani, the experience required to level a Sidhe Warrior appears to be too high. Compare with the Elvish Fighter. The Fighter requires 28 exp., the Warrior 32. Since the Fighter has a ranged weapon, and the Warrior does not, it is easier to level a Fighter, but the Warrior needs more exp. to level. I'd suggest reducing the Warrior's required exp. to 26. The only argument against this I can come up with is that it might be desirable to make it difficult to acquire Veiledblades, since their backstab is so awesome, especially considering what great skirmishers the Sidhe have. This might be an argument for changes to the Veiledblade rather than one for leaving the Warrior's required exp. as it is, though.
I'd like to hear some opinions on the Dwarvish Runesmith line. It feels overpowered, but if I compare the Runesmith to the Steelclad, it has 13 less hit points, does not have a choice of damage types, and just slighly better resists. It never gains a ranged weapon. My head says these factors make the Runesmith reasonable, but my heart says it's still overpowered.
One thing that isn't a balancing issue, but is a problem: the ai does not understand that it cannot attack with Shieldbearers. This results in an OOS error: "Illegal weapon type in attack". The error doesn't cause any further problems, but is annoying. I haven't the slightest clue what might be done about this.
It seems to me that the Aragwaithi Protection ability should be changed so that, like leadership, it only affects units of lower level. Watching a Guard take only 5 damage from the blows of a Deathblade at night convinced me of this.
As was pointed out to me by nani, the experience required to level a Sidhe Warrior appears to be too high. Compare with the Elvish Fighter. The Fighter requires 28 exp., the Warrior 32. Since the Fighter has a ranged weapon, and the Warrior does not, it is easier to level a Fighter, but the Warrior needs more exp. to level. I'd suggest reducing the Warrior's required exp. to 26. The only argument against this I can come up with is that it might be desirable to make it difficult to acquire Veiledblades, since their backstab is so awesome, especially considering what great skirmishers the Sidhe have. This might be an argument for changes to the Veiledblade rather than one for leaving the Warrior's required exp. as it is, though.
I'd like to hear some opinions on the Dwarvish Runesmith line. It feels overpowered, but if I compare the Runesmith to the Steelclad, it has 13 less hit points, does not have a choice of damage types, and just slighly better resists. It never gains a ranged weapon. My head says these factors make the Runesmith reasonable, but my heart says it's still overpowered.
One thing that isn't a balancing issue, but is a problem: the ai does not understand that it cannot attack with Shieldbearers. This results in an OOS error: "Illegal weapon type in attack". The error doesn't cause any further problems, but is annoying. I haven't the slightest clue what might be done about this.
Last edited by Truper on August 11th, 2007, 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For the Dwarvish runesmith line the current plan is to change their XP to something similar to the mages.
I also have some plan for the Aragwaith spearmen : raise their resistances (probably to +10% blade, +10% pierce).
I don't know it the swordsman->swordmaster line should keep its current +10 % blade extra resistance.
In my mind the swordsmen look unarmored while the spearmen look armored.
For protection & sidhe warriors you suggestions look good, i'll do the change
I also have some plan for the Aragwaith spearmen : raise their resistances (probably to +10% blade, +10% pierce).
I don't know it the swordsman->swordmaster line should keep its current +10 % blade extra resistance.
In my mind the swordsmen look unarmored while the spearmen look armored.
For protection & sidhe warriors you suggestions look good, i'll do the change
"Ooh, man, my mage had a 30% chance to miss, but he still managed to hit! Awesome!" 
-- xtifr
-- xtifrI also get the illegal weapon type when those shieldbearers try to attack me. It doesn't cause me any problems, I just click the check box that says "ignore all" and it's fine.
I'd been wondering about the spearman for the Aragwaithi for some time now, it always felt that since they had a shield, they should have some piercing resistance or something, they have more hit points, but still die so easily. I do like how the scouts got beefed up, in my mind that change made up for the spearman thing. I just never built that many spear-guys.
I've gotta confess that the northerners are actually my favorite faction right now, though!
I'd been wondering about the spearman for the Aragwaithi for some time now, it always felt that since they had a shield, they should have some piercing resistance or something, they have more hit points, but still die so easily. I do like how the scouts got beefed up, in my mind that change made up for the spearman thing. I just never built that many spear-guys.
I've gotta confess that the northerners are actually my favorite faction right now, though!
"If you love something - set it free. If it doesn't come back - hunt it down and kill it."
(When you started making suggestions on my other thread - I didnt make the connection that you ARE the extended era - thanks for your help.)Noyga wrote:For the Dwarvish runesmith line the current plan is to change their XP to something similar to the mages.
I also have some plan for the Aragwaith spearmen : raise their resistances (probably to +10% blade, +10% pierce).
I don't know it the swordsman->swordmaster line should keep its current +10 % blade extra resistance.
In my mind the swordsmen look unarmored while the spearmen look armored.
For protection & sidhe warriors you suggestions look good, i'll do the change
Anyway, some friends of mine and I gave the Aragwaith spearman the "marksman" capability for a while to see how it sussed out.
The results were quite pleasent. Their lifespan was not extended greatly - though with the "first strike" "marksmen" combo, they became very deadly to cavalry, and acceptable on offence. This finally gave them a means to compete with their brethren the archers.
Seeing as how every time we've played with the aragwaith or against them, their poor spearman die to unanswered ranged fire, the addition of "marksman" for these "hunter-spearmen professionals" seemed natural, and not over powered.
The results were that spearmen became useful in situations like forest occupation. they actually could be used to rouse the enemy from entrenched positions, and forced the enemy to consider them more severely (and thus attack them more often) making their firststrike ability finally come into play.
The preferred method in dealing with them was still at range - but suddenly their "threat level" was high enough to consider using melee to kill them off, before they leveled or did too much damage.
The marksman ability was given to the strictly spearman line (pikeman, etc).
Since then we've downloaded the 1.3.6 versions of wesnoth and EE, and have not again upgraded the Aragwaith spearman in order to see what was different and if anything had changed - as it looks thus far, the humble spearman may need their marksman/professional upgrade once again.
Thanks for the great addition to wesnoth!
-Qes
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Shadow
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Strange I've used mostly some swordman as shield while the spearman are the high damage dealers sometimes they knock out a unit with one blast sometimes not but still they are quite effective as is. Marksman might be overpowered. I thought the same about the scouts they do more reliable damage than spearmans but they must cap villages else they are wasted , they have only in groups a chance doing damage in the next round, they are quite expensive and they also must compete with the Eagle Rider.
For Aragwaithi Protection I agree it was really powerfull but still the archer bugs me he seems too fragile. for my taste sure he does some damage but he probably won't survive any kind of counter attack.
For Aragwaithi Protection I agree it was really powerfull but still the archer bugs me he seems too fragile. for my taste sure he does some damage but he probably won't survive any kind of counter attack.
... all romantics meet the same fate someday
Cynical and drunk and boring someone in some dark cafe ...
All good dreamers pass this way some day
Hidin’ behind bottles in dark cafes
Cynical and drunk and boring someone in some dark cafe ...
All good dreamers pass this way some day
Hidin’ behind bottles in dark cafes
In fact x.30.4 is the most recent version for Wesnoth 1.3.x...
Btw it should be backwards compatible with x.30.0, the only changes should be translations, graphic upgrades and some small bugfixes that don't break compatibility.
As a general rule a version a.b.c of the Extended Era should be backwards compatible with a.b.0 .
For the next major release i'm going to change protection to be effective only on units of lower level, and were're going to add a level 4 to the Flagbearer line when it will be ready.
BTW, i'm wonder what a should do with the protection bonus :
1) a constant bonus like now ?
2) a bonus that is a multiple of the difference of level, like leadership ?
What do you think is the best ?
I tend to prefer 1)
Btw it should be backwards compatible with x.30.0, the only changes should be translations, graphic upgrades and some small bugfixes that don't break compatibility.
As a general rule a version a.b.c of the Extended Era should be backwards compatible with a.b.0 .
For the next major release i'm going to change protection to be effective only on units of lower level, and were're going to add a level 4 to the Flagbearer line when it will be ready.
BTW, i'm wonder what a should do with the protection bonus :
1) a constant bonus like now ?
2) a bonus that is a multiple of the difference of level, like leadership ?
What do you think is the best ?
I tend to prefer 1)
"Ooh, man, my mage had a 30% chance to miss, but he still managed to hit! Awesome!" -- xtifr
-- xtifrIts an interesting question. I regard Protection as a sort of defensive Leadership, so if it scaled with the difference in levels I could hardly object. On the other hand, should the presence of a level 4 Flagebearer, whatever it ends up being called, give all adjacent Aragwaith 50% resistance to everything? I don't think so, so I'd be inclined to say that it should work as it does now, except only on lower-level units.
I'd like to say that since protection is not scaleable, much of it's appeal is that it works with units of the same level. I understand why it's being changed, its just a preference - mostly because the unit is specializing in this group warfare dynamic, and therefore it makes the sacrificies necessary in raw power to help other units.
Id rather not see a "scalable" version of protection, because the flat 20% is easy to remember. If it has protection, everything around it gets a 20% boost in resistances. Done with thought.
Is it possible - instead of a larger bonus the higher it gets, to make a "faded" aura of resistance bonuses?
At level 2, all 1s and 0s get 20% if ajacent.
At level 3, all 2s and 1s and 0s get 20% if adjacent, 10% if two hexs away.
At level 4, all 3s 2s, 1s, and 0s get 20% adjacent, 10% if two hexes away, and 5% if three hexes away.
In this, the maximum bonus would never exceed 20%, but the realative "range" of the bonus would increase with minor resistances. I think it not terribly unbalanced because as far as I know, they cant stack on themselves (from multiple bearers) and the resistances are not large enough to give anyone too big of a headache.
Just a thought, nothing more, nothing less.
-Qes
Id rather not see a "scalable" version of protection, because the flat 20% is easy to remember. If it has protection, everything around it gets a 20% boost in resistances. Done with thought.
Is it possible - instead of a larger bonus the higher it gets, to make a "faded" aura of resistance bonuses?
At level 2, all 1s and 0s get 20% if ajacent.
At level 3, all 2s and 1s and 0s get 20% if adjacent, 10% if two hexs away.
At level 4, all 3s 2s, 1s, and 0s get 20% adjacent, 10% if two hexes away, and 5% if three hexes away.
In this, the maximum bonus would never exceed 20%, but the realative "range" of the bonus would increase with minor resistances. I think it not terribly unbalanced because as far as I know, they cant stack on themselves (from multiple bearers) and the resistances are not large enough to give anyone too big of a headache.
Just a thought, nothing more, nothing less.
-Qes
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Shadow
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I like the idea. Because I planned for the lv 4 that he holds a huge flag in his hand (ca. the size of a normal lv2 unit). Would make sense with the range increase beause it would be more visible.
... all romantics meet the same fate someday
Cynical and drunk and boring someone in some dark cafe ...
All good dreamers pass this way some day
Hidin’ behind bottles in dark cafes
Cynical and drunk and boring someone in some dark cafe ...
All good dreamers pass this way some day
Hidin’ behind bottles in dark cafes
There would only very rarely, if ever, be any difference between a 10% and 5% resistance bonus. In fact, there is frequently no difference between a 20% bonus and a 10% bonus.
I also think we should be very careful about introducing abilities that work at a range of more than one hex. There are currently none in the game. Why should the Aragwaith have such an ability, but no one else?
I also think we should be very careful about introducing abilities that work at a range of more than one hex. There are currently none in the game. Why should the Aragwaith have such an ability, but no one else?