Roman legion type faction

[aelius]

But then we must remember legions weren't cheap. After all, if a legion died it could take years to have the men to replace it, IF it could be replaced.

This statement must be taken with an enormous grain of salt. It is true, to a limited extent, during a relatively brief period of time in the third century a.d, and completely false for the other 1000 years or so in which the legion was a mainline fighting unit.

In the very early Republic (i.e. the time Livy is our primary source) we see the Romans throwing away legionary armies like they were used toliet paper. Their strategy against Phyrrus seems to have been to whittle down his army in bite sized chunks till he became frustrated and went away.

In the First Punic War, the Romans would regularly lose in the neighborhood of 10,000 soldiers per naval battle. Didn't slow them down.

Against Hannibal the story is even more striking. The Romans, in the span of four years, lost armies of ~20,000 (Ticinus), ~25,000 (Trebia), ~35,000 (Trasemine), and ~60,000 (Cannae). They then proceeded to assemble an even larger army (!) and whomp Hannibal at Zama in 202. This was the prime of the Legion.

So really, the Roman legionary formations could be replaced almost at will for the enormous bulk of Roman history. After the crisis of the third century, they became much more fragile. This, however, represents a thin slice in the historical life of the unit. Hard to replace they were not.

Also, there's good scholarly argument that the Roman soldier's primary weapons were his throwing javelin, the pilum, and his shield (!) the scutum. In theory, the maniple would throw its javelins at a charge, bowl over the enemy with their shields, and deliver a coup de grace with the too-short-to-be-really-effective gladius.

So maybe a 6-2 pierce ranged attack, a 3-3 pierce melee attack, and a 16-1 impact melee attack, if we're aiming for historicity.

- b.[/i]

[Dave]

Short stabbing weapons are not piercing weapons in Wesnoth. A 'piercing' weapon in Wesnoth must be long enough to impale the rider of a horse while the user of the weapon is still in front of the horse's nose.

Daggers, short swords including the gladius, thrown darts, fangs/teeth, and so forth are all considered 'slashing' or 'bladed' weapons.

David

[unsung]

Since I don't see this faction getting off the ground without art, I really like the idea, and I have some pixel art skills, I have made an image for the Legionnaire. I can't animate it, but I bet most of its animations can be copied from the spearman, which this unit was (rather obviously) based on.

I used this image as inspiration for what he should look like; if its really inaccurate or something, I can try to change the incorrect aspect of him.

looks pretty good actually. turns out I get paid next wendsday so I still hav eto wait...

[Temuchin Khan]

I like aelius' suggestions for the Legionnaire's attacks, but we should defer to Dave on whether the gladius should have a blade or a pierce attack in Wesnoth.

Suggestions for archer and cavalry lines:

Auxiliary Archer -> Socius -> Foederatus
Auxiliary Horse -> Eques -> Numidian Champion

And I like Turin's ideas for the Slave Levy and Elephant Rider lines.

Also, if we wanted the Aquilifer to advance to third level, perhaps it could be: "Legionnaire -> Eagle -> Aquilifer," to parallel "Legionnaire -> Champion -> Centurion."

[turin]

So, are our horsemen going to be black?

I never heard of Numidians being all that great horse riders, but they might have been.

[aelius]

Numidian cavalry were quite well respected, as were the Macedonian lancers.

The Romans used slave levies only in dire dire emergency, and (I believe, but am willing to be corrected) only once. After the disaster at Cannae they could either arm slaves or soldiers who had fled from the battle. They chose the slaves on the theory that, while they were probably going to be worthless cowards, everyone knew that soldiers who fled their post were worthless cowards.

If you'd like to replicate the legion at its prime, consider the following:

Velites: light infantry with skirmish - 5-3 blade, level 0
Triarius: medium infantry - 6-3 blade, 8-1 impact, decent resistance, leadership, level 1
Princeps: heavy infantry - 7-3 pierce, steadfast, level 2

The velites engage, weaken the enemy, and, if necessary, withdraw. The triarii take over and to the bulk of the fighting. If they are hard pressed, they withdraw through the principes, who form a shield line whilst the other two lines reform. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Additionally, you'd have the allied troops:

Numidian Horse: light cavalry with skrimish - 4-4 blade
Cretan Slinger: ranged infantry with 3-5 impact
Thracian Bowman: ranged infantry with 11-1 pierce or somesuch.

That would be a mid-Republican legion. The legion changed a whole bunch in 105 B.C. when Marius re-organized it, and again after Hadrian. I can think those through too...

- b.

[turin]

Here is either a centurion or a champion, I'm not sure which.

BTW, what about changing the name champion to something more Latin?

Also, I have an idea for the stats: since the roman army was all about dicipline, we could have more units than normal with leadership, but have it so most of the 3rd level units aren't as good as those of other factions. For example, I'd like it if both the Centurion and Aquilifer branch had leadership, but the Aquilifer branch had Illuminates (assuming these people will be lawful).

[Temuchin Khan]

During the Second Punic War, the best horsemen on both the Carthagian and the Roman sides were Numidians! A big diplomatic goal of both sides was to seal an alliance with Numidia. Early on, both claimants to the Numidian throne -- Masinissa and Syphax -- were allied to Carthage. Then Masinissa became impressed with Scipio Africanus and switched to the Romans. Syphax flirted with the idea of allying with the Romans, but stayed loyal to Carthage when they offered him a marriage to the beautiful Sophonisba. In the end, however, Masinissa and Scipio's lieutenant Laelius defeated Syphax and the Numidians became Roman allies. So, yes, I think black cavalrymen would be appropriate!

Also, the Numidians rode bareback and threw javelins, so we should give them a ranged pierce attack, not just a close-range attack.

The second level cavalry unit could also be "Equestrian" or "Numidian Claimant," I suppose, though I still like "Eques."

As for the second level Legionnaire, how about "Vindex" or "Propugnator" or "Pugnator".

I like Aelius' suggestions about how to portray the Legions accurately, but do you think it could be done within Wesnoth's limitations? I have my doubts, so I have been giving my suggestions on the basis of what would be feasible. Still, if Aelius' ideas can be put into effect, by all means go for it!

And after Cannae (I love the Second Punic War!), they didn't disband the survivors but sent them, in disgrace, to a post in Sicily. Except, that is, for Scipio Africanus, who had rallied the troops after the disaster and persuaded some of the officers not to abandon Rome and become mercenaries in the East. As for the slaves that they drafted, if I remember rightly they were promised their freedom in return for faithful and courageous military service. Ironically, though, the same troops who survived Cannae were in Scipio's Legions when he defeated Hannibal at Zama!

I also like Turin's ideas for emphasizing the Roman talent for discipline, discipline, and discipline.

[turin]

Interesting. I like the name Numidian Claimant for the 2nd level.

Here is a numidian horsemen; I made it look kind of like a light infantry, so you could imagine him throwing the javelin.

[Temuchin Khan]

Nice Numidian horseman!

Also, if we wanted to add a Slinger line, which might be interesting since he would have a ranged impact attack:

Auxiliary Slinger -> ????? -> Funditor

[aelius]

I'd be tempted to have the slinger only have two levels:

Code: Select all

Auxiliary Slinger -> Funditor

I do think that if you gave most of the Roman units either skirmish or steadfast you could come up with a reasonable representation of how the manipular legion fought. Of course, this isn't the legion that hollywood has made famous, so I don't know how much interest there would be in that.


Turin, your pixel art has come a long way! I really like the Numidian.

Temuchin, how is it that you know so much about Roman history?

- b.

[turin]

A slinging line would be interesting, but we don't want to add too many units. If we get art for it before one of the other less important lines, sure.

Thanks, aelius! i've been mostly editing and combining other sprites, but not so much with the Legionnaire and Centurion. But, I'm having a lot of fun making these.

Here's either the Numidian Champion or the Numidian Claimant, I'm not sure which.

[Cuyo Quiz]

Are they having Macedonian cavalry?.

I can appreciate the scutum as the primary weapon, i've heard the theory. But i would like to focus on the possibility of them getting steadfast or not.

Also, I always think of the legions after the reform. That is, when the legions carried all of their equipment themselves, no animals, usually in groups of eight.

EDIT: Also...lawful, neutral, chaotic?. I think neutral would fit the legionnaire image, because they would always work at their best. I can see the Far East getting chaotic ninjas or something, but anyway, mixed alignments on the romans?.

[turin]

Well, no, they're getting Numidian cavalry. But, I think Macedonian cavalry might fit better in this faction, and the Numidians should go in a different faction.

So far the era this could go in has 4 factions:
* Romans
* Arabians/Desert People
* Barbarians/Vikings/Marauders
* Far East

The Numidians would make more sense with the Desert People faction, IMHO.

[Jetrel]

Short stabbing weapons are not piercing weapons in Wesnoth. A 'piercing' weapon in Wesnoth must be long enough to impale the rider of a horse while the user of the weapon is still in front of the horse's nose.

Daggers, short swords including the gladius, thrown darts, fangs/teeth, and so forth are all considered 'slashing' or 'bladed' weapons.

David

Part of the idea is that a "piercing" weapon must have a great deal of force behind it, enough that it can go clean through not merely a person, but also plate armor.

It's also partly an idea of "depth of pierce." A gladius won't go more than a foot into something (try a horse, for example), whereas a properly fired arrow might just disappear into the beast.


And finally, we use our damage types as somewhat of an "fighting style" modifier as well. You attack with a spear very differently than with a dagger, even if the active surface is practically the same. If we were going to make wesnoth a heck of a lot more complicated, we might add in a layer describing combat style.

This would have a lot of effect on things like legionaires, who's strength wasn't what they were equipped with, or even really the strategies they used, but how they fought on a very low level. It was the choices of movements they made that made them so powerful, locking shields, and all the other stuff we all know about.


But we're not going to do that to wesnoth, nor would the game model deal with it very well. We just say "piercing" when a guy has a spear, and use that to represent a host of very complicated things.