Displaying attack info in 1.9

[Joram]

No, the unit gets two melée attacks per turn, each dealing 9 damage. The 2 signifies the number of attacks that unit gets per turn, not the bonus it receives from leadership.

I've always thought it was rather dumb counter-intuitive that we use a hyphen to indicate iterations, where it normally means a range or a subtraction. How many of us see 5-4 and read it in our heads as "five to four"? Of course we know what it really means, but still it's wrong non-standard.

Non-standard to whom?

The hyphen is the most natural thing in the world (to me) to seperate different values associated with a unit.

Not that this topic needs to be opened again (since it was already discussed), but I wanted to point that out.

[Velensk]

Uh, although I have no problem with the hyphen and have played Squad Leader I don't think that the notation transfers over particuarly well.

EDIT: aside, some of those arn't hyphens they are negitive signs. I'm fairly certain that in some scenario somewhere there are leaders with ratings such as 7+2 (and they are highly inconvenient).

[norbert]

[...] counter-intuitive that we use a hyphen to indicate iterations, where it normally means a range or a subtraction.

The hyphen is the most natural thing in the world (to me) to seperate different values associated with a unit.

When I started playing Wesnoth in 2006, it seemed very counter-intuitive to me that the damage is listed before the number of attacks. The Drake Arbiter, for example, has a "16-3 halberd". By itself, "16-3" seems to be multiplier-multiplicand to me, because we also say "I have 16 apples" and not "I have apples 16". As a whole, you'd also expect the characteristics of the weapon to be listed next to it: it's a halberd that does 3 damage; the unit attacks with it 16 times. (There is "16", "-" and "3 halberd".)

[Alink]

Throwing my two cents in, regarding tooltips I think it's bad to rely on them for basic info. First of all, how many people know that they even exist? Does the game tell you that by hoovering over perfectly normal-looking text you get extra information? Because to me personally it's rather counter-intuitive.

One of the first page of the help (Fundamentals of Gameplay) show an image of a tooltip and says:
"While playing, keep in mind that if you mouse-over many items in the game, such as the information displayed in the status pane, a brief description will be shown explaining each item. This is especially useful when you encounter new abilities for the first time". They are also very common in computer since a long time.

Tooltips have always been used to explain and show details about the basic info (how ability named X works, some resistance infos...). The only thing new in 1.9 is that they expose more some calculations details. For this specific topic, the question is more what is the basic info: the default value or the value used here and now. Other items already used the later, now damage also do it.

We can't expose all the numbers (too much for beginners and not enough GUI space). Some choices need to be done, and tooltip is a way to keep the hidden values still accessible. BTW some resolutions already don't have enough space.

[johndh]

Throwing my two cents in, regarding tooltips I think it's bad to rely on them for basic info. First of all, how many people know that they even exist?

I never knew they existed until this thread came along.

[norbert]

First of all, how many people know that [tooltips] even exist?

I never knew they existed until this thread came along.

When I started playing I noticed the tooltips, but IIRC it took quite a while before I noticed that even the HP had a tooltip (about resistances; not unimportant). Maybe it would be better if the units had a single tooltip that would show up if the mouse moved over an area that would be a lot bigger. See the attachment for an example.

[Captain_Wrathbow]

It's a good idea, but could use some improvement. I think it would be rather annoying for that huge info box to pop up every time I accidentally (or intentionally) move my pointer over to the sidebar.

[ivanovic]

When I started playing I noticed the tooltips, but IIRC it took quite a while before I noticed that even the HP had a tooltip (about resistances; not unimportant). Maybe it would be better if the units had a single tooltip that would show up if the mouse moved over an area that would be a lot bigger. See the attachment for an example.

Don't forget that there are lower resolutions, like 800x480, too. In those there is not enough space to display a complete unit help page with all the information.

[norbert]

Don't forget that there are lower resolutions, like 800x480, too. In those there is not enough space to display a complete unit help page with all the information.

I think nobody is suggesting moving "a complete unit help page with all the information" to an area greater than or even close to "800x480". The transparent window in my last image is 435 by 310 pixels and I was talking about moving the existing tooltips there...

[tekelili]

just my two cents as a player that started to play about 1 year ago and have a fresh remind of when he was a total newbi:

I have never read any manul of wesnoth because one of the things I more like of this game desing is almost all what you need to now about rules is displayed on game screen. By pointing a skill or anything with mouse or rightclickin on it I really learned all what I needed to know but just 1 thing: how damage modifiers are rounded and how rounding works with stacked modifiers. Just say some weeks ago I ruined a wc game because I decided I could expose my most important unit (my only healer) to a lvl2 horseman attack at night (the one with 3 attacks). After do maths for long time with ToD, my unit´s resistance, double damage by charge and roundings, I thought I couldnt die to 3 hits... but I died (lucky damn AI got 3 hits of, course), because he inflicted 1 more damage hitpoint for each strike than I calculated.

As my usual way to plan my whole army moves is to "attack" enemy units to check damage and then undo until I have clear all my moves and this leads to me to be ambushed (very disgusting and makes you look very stupid to other players), I often think this damage simulation could be improbeved.

My idea: when you have one of your units selected, would be nice you could just "attack" any enemy unit you can see. the usual attack display appear as do now, but just you can´t confirm that attack if that unit is not in range of your selected unit. Would be nice both mele and range options were displayed even if you dont have one of them, because you could want to know how much mele damage can be inflicted to your dark adept. Finally, would be very cool 3 options of ToD were displayed so clicking on 1 of them you simulate each different damage, the current ToD would be clicked by default when you attack for damage simulations.

I hope have explained it enougth clear, and beg pardon for not be able to provide an example screen of how I see the 3 ToD buttons in my mind displayed. Anyway, that was my 2 cents.

[ivanovic]

Don't forget that there are lower resolutions, like 800x480, too. In those there is not enough space to display a complete unit help page with all the information.

I think nobody is suggesting moving "a complete unit help page with all the information" to an area greater than or even close to "800x480". The transparent window in my last image is 435 by 310 pixels and I was talking about moving the existing tooltips there...

In fact basically everything in the right pane *is* part of the ingame help. The only in there that is additional are unit portraits. Beside this basically all the ingame help information is displayed as mouse over in the right pane, too. Getting this into a nicely displayed version will use lots of space, since the one you provided is not really, uhm, clean and easy to interpret/read.