thespaceinvader's portraits - Ancient Wose

[Captain Swing]

I entirely disagree - they're inspired by a real-life helmet, the only difference being that they don't go all the way down the face. It doesn't take much to deflect a sword-stroke...

Other than the amusing issue of Wesnoth's armor getting more and more historically advanced as time goes on/levels raise (We're smack in the middle of the 17th century now - with Gothic, Maximilan and Milanese plate combined with English Civil War gear -- who gets to wear the Napoleonic stuff?), which I'm all for given the 17th century stuff just looks cooler.

I however have to side with the detractors on this helmet. The Lobster tail itself is a great idea , and the face bars as well, but the triangular design looks odd, and might read as off - one of the helmets you linked to had a very nice internal set of cheek guards and pointier visor - I think combining this with a single nasal bar might give the look of protection and fully visable face you're going for with looking more 'real'.

Also it seems that these dwarves, while they love to engrave their armor with curlicues they aren't willing to flute it. The shapes of your plate are very square, not the rounded stuff of history, and look a bit crude to me - so much more could be done - if you're up to it maybe you should try it, and I hear back in the day it made things a lot stronger as well. These are just my random thoughts - but internal decoration adds such much of a rich ornate feel of something being well crafted that I really hope you'll consider.

I really like the breastplate on the second spearman - and your dwarf proportions are getting better to! The first guy is okay, I like the pose, but the chestplate seems to be not thick enough, or under the mail -- which might be fine if you pushed the mail out over it a bit - as of now it makes the mail seem very thin, especially if he's got something under it like an arming doublet.

... Swing

[Turuk]

The bars on the sentinel's helmet don't work. It looks like a half-assed hockey mask. It's neither a practical device in the real world nor cool-looking, as it's going to necessarily disrupt what looks like an appealing facial render.

- Chris

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[thespaceinvader]

Also it seems that these dwarves, while they love to engrave their armor with curlicues they aren't willing to flute it. The shapes of your plate are very square, not the rounded stuff of history, and look a bit crude to me - so much more could be done - if you're up to it maybe you should try it, and I hear back in the day it made things a lot stronger as well. These are just my random thoughts - but internal decoration adds such much of a rich ornate feel of something being well crafted that I really hope you'll consider.

I've been attempting simply to keep the stylistic elements the same across the different units, so they're all recognisably from the same culture. I've found the easiest way to do that is to keep the pauldrons and arm-armour in the same style throughout - it works for me to have them remain simple and solid with decorations, rather than getting complicated and curly. It keeps them distinct, even if it's not historically accurate (i don't want to move too far towards armour matching the Loyalists, for instance). Also, I'll move the Guard's breast plate out. I've notice the inconsistency myself, just not got around to fixing it yet.

[kitty]

i just saw that i missed your painting update on the guard yesterday.
the metal on his shield is really looking nice!

i attatch a little paintover with some general thoughts on constructing noses and trying to explain what bothers me about his right arm:

you seem to construct your noses from one block and three balls at the bottom end of it (i used this method very long, too - even an art teacher in school explained noses this way). but i think (while generally simplifications are good and important) this one is too simplified and deceptive. the shape of the nose is more massive and from on black than from three seperate balls. i hope the sketches are clearer than my poor explanation...

concerning the arm i just think that you need to move the arm armour and glove up a bit. atm they cut into his flesh too much.


regarding the sentinel's helmet i think the basic idea is quite nice and interesting - but if you get so many people wondering/being confused/complaining about it, there is something wrong with it pretty propably. i'd keep the lobster tail pot helmet (what a great name!) but do a new version (andy watch out that it is parallel with the face!).

[Captain Swing]

I've been attempting simply to keep the stylistic elements the same across the different units, so they're all recognisably from the same culture. I've found the easiest way to do that is to keep the pauldrons and arm-armour in the same style throughout - it works for me to have them remain simple and solid with decorations, rather than getting complicated and curly.

Fair enough! You may want to consider changing the Gothic tassets on the 2nd spearman then, the don't quite fit the rest of your dwarf look that well. Maybe just redo the lames with straight lines? Or perhaps something more solid like this?

Just an idea, but I figure if you've got a clear vision, run with it. Also be careful with that waist armor in general, both armor and belts have considerable thickness which I think is getting lost right now.

...Swing

[thespaceinvader]

That looks pretty good actually =) /me steals. I'll keep the leather and chain hangers in the middle, though, to tie it into the previous level.

Kitty: thanks for the input - i do try to construct my noses a bit more interestignly, but in the front view it all tends to get a bit lost. I'll try to enhance the appearance.

EDIT: preliminarily completed Guard.

[kitty]

looks like you are becoming our chainmail expert really nicely done!

he doesn't really look finished to me yet...
most of all the hair (eyebrows an beard) don't look enough like hair right now. have you looked at some pictures of beards? just to get a feeling how these hairs behave. and i'm aware that red hair can be quite saturated but this looks a bit much to me.
the other thing that really bugs me in his face is the nose like i already mentioned, really have another look at how nostrils are shaped and how light can meet them! (you mentioned that you have another "interesting" way of constructing the nose - care to tell me how?) what i really like about the face is the sculptural feel of the eyesockets!
i'm not really convinced by the shading of his breast armour (is there a special term for that part?). the reflection makes it look asymmetrically. and i think his lower regions could generally be a tad darker.

[thespaceinvader]

I rushed the beard, I'll admit. I'll fix it tomorrow afternoon. With noses - i try to construct them with more than just a ridge and three blobs, but from the front, that's what they tend to boil down to. I'll try a complete repaint on it to see what I can make of it. The breastplate needs rethinking a little, you're right. And duly noted on the lower parts. It's gratifying that there seems to be less and less to fix each time I do a new portrait =D

[JW]

Very nice work for picking up LB's metallic style only recently. I think the helmet needs more midtones stretching across its midpoint though. It seems to me you use many darktones in your metals where metals are generally known for being shiny.

The shield is perfect. I think it's my fav piece of all your work so far, but I haven't looked at your augr in a long time either (another fav).

There are several places where I feel the armor doesn't match up though. First, the chainmail of the lower half seems like it's hanging on a straight plane whereas the mail around the belly clearly curves very nicely. I get this impression because his left hip area where the mail should be curving around to his backside it does not seem to do so. The last hanging belt strap also seems to hang at an odd angle. Also, as kitty mentioned, the shield would cast a much larger shadow across that portion.

Secondly, the style of shading seems much different between the shield & right spaulder and the rest of the solid metals. The former are very crisp, clean and beautifully done whereas the others are more muddled. Also, the curvature of the right spaulder seems to put its corner into the breastplate (perhaps propogated by the shading of the breastplate and the curvature of the gold). And I hate to say, but the shading on the breastplate just does not feel very realistic to me. Not to be harsh, but it looks like it was made with both a light and a dark metal in different halves.

I admire your ability to make this art though. Even if I give seemingly many critiques, it's only because I feel your work is good enough where some minor tweaks could change a good work into an excellent one. I know you spend a lot of time working on these, so I try to take great care in observing every minute detail and describing precisely what I see. I think to do any less would not be fair. For example, I've taken about half an hour+ writing this post going back and forth to the picture. The only reason I'm even going into this is so that you know I'm not just quickly getting an impression and making even quicker comments without good basis.

[LordBob]

The guard's shaping up well enough, but the belly and lower body stand out. I think this is because their shadows are much lighter than those of the arms and shield. Compare the dark tones of the shield with those of the chainmail next to it : it's hard to believe they're lit by the same source

Speaking of shadows, the one the shield casts over the lower body has a straight edge : this would be correct if the surface behind the shield were flat, but in such a situation it gives me an odd feeling. What advice I can give : where the shield is closest to the surface, its shadow will have a cutting edge, whereas it'll get blurry with distance.


So altogether one problem only, uniting the lightsource of the body and that of the shield

[Captain Swing]

i'm not really convinced by the shading of his breast armour (is there a special term for that part?). the reflection makes it look asymmetrically. and i think his lower regions could generally be a tad darker.

Nice chainmail indeed - I do like his belly now, but I got some worries about the breastplate and the proportions of the body under it. The Body might be fine - neck seems a bit short for the rest of the pose, and the shield arm maybe long (or spear arm short). I've tried to figure out sort of where stuff is with the green lines below. The red lines represent the shape I think I'm seeing for the breastplate, and they just don't quite add up. Look at where the centerline of his possible chest and that of the breastplate (which should be a smidge or two above it) - also the curvature of the lower part of the plate vs.the middle and neck and shoulder lines - maybe try giving it some more volume up top? Anyway hope it helps.

dwarf-guardprop.png (190.37 KiB) Viewed 3831 times

...Swing

[thespaceinvader]

It should =)

The breastplate shape is wrong, you're right, everyone who said that. The brass bottom bar is too sharply curved on the shield side. The chain needs some perspective inside the outermost hanger. I'll work on this when I get back =)

EDIT: preliminarily finished, again, posted at final size and cropping.

RE-EDIT: updated Sentinel lines.

[Turuk]

On his belly by the shield edge, in the middle of his belly, and on his left forearm, the chainmail seems to have that effect again where a fair amount of metal shows up between the links.

Also, by the shield edge, the chainmail seems blurred out.

[thespaceinvader]

That's odd o_O

I think it might be due to the colour overlay - i'll take it off that part.

EDIT: hopefully this ought to see to it =)

[Turuk]

For the most part, but there is still a little at the top. This might be one of those things where it may not be a big deal and is just me, but I thought you would like to know.