Extended Era revived - version 36

[Truper]

How about this: significantly reduce their defenses in all non-cavernous terrains. Given that at the beginning of the Dark Elf campaign they live deeper underground than the Dwarves, and have been living there for generations, doesn't it make sense that they would function poorly outside of the caves? For that matter, why not significantly reduce their effectiveness in forests, too?

What I have in mind is only 10% or 20% defense in forest and grassland and similar terrains.

Unfortunately, I never played the Dark Elf campaign, so I am just trying to deal with the faction as presented in the Extended Era. Your suggestion makes sense, given that the Dark Elves are obviously based on the D&D Drow (one of the descriptions even refers to a Matron Mother), but it would take a lot of playtesting to balance a faction with no defence on typical terrains.

[Truper]

I also think that 25+ prices are insane for level 1 unit and should be avoided. If i make some changes i won't only change the prices.

Understood. Thus the comments at the end of my original post.

For information i already changed the Lizard rider movetype, it has less defense now (in the yet unfinished 0.21 release), here is how it currently looks:
- deep water: 20 % defense, uneachable
- shallow water: 20 % defense, 3 moves
- swamp: 40% defense, 2 moves
- grassland: 30% defense, 1 move
- sand: 40% defense, 1 move
- forest: 40% defense, 2 moves
- hills: 50% defense, 1 move
- mountains: 40% defense, 5 moves
- village: 40% defense, 1 move
- castle: 50% defense, 1 move
- caves: 40% defense, 1 move
- snow: 20% defense, 4 moves
- mushroom: 40% defense, 1 move

1 move in hills but 5 in mountains sems a little odd. How about 3 in mountains? Otherwise that looks good to me.

The 0% resistance to holy of the Hunter looks like an error, but background-wise it makes sense. Since those creature live in caves and have pale skin they would be unused to light, thus would take a little more damage from holy attack.
How about applying this to the whole faction (perharps except the mages and lizards ?) Or just a 10% resistance, instead of 20% ?

The reason that the Hunter's 0% resistance seems to be an error is that the whole rest of the faction has the usual 20%. I can understand the suggestion of an across-the-board 10% resistance, but don't really like it, since while Dark Elves like darkness, they are not associated with Undead.

For the units balance:
Enchantress: I'd rather change the HP & ranged attack stats, perhaps +1 gold but no more. How about simply changing its ranged attack to 5-3 ? I see this unit as a mixed fighter with a little better ranged attack.

6-2 melee doesn't really make for any kind of a 'fighter', but I understand what you mean. If you dropped the ranged to 5-3, and the hp to say 28, wouldn't this unit still be worth more than a Mage?

Hunter: well i always wondered. Do they really need to have poison (for background reason) ? I was thinking about removing poison on turning them into conventional archers.

I don't know enough about the background to make the call on that basis, but I like the idea of removing the poison so that the unit is not simply an improved Assassin. Since the 2nd level unit gains backstab, it wouldn't be a conventional crossbowman, either. The ranged damage would have to be increased if poison was removed. Perhaps 6-3?

Lizard Rider: see above, might still needs some changes, through.

Since the Lizard Rider has that 5-3 blade attack, I wouldn't mind at all if it had a less-capable charge attack than the Horseman.

Wizard: I was thinking about reducing his HP...

This unit bothers me, since it is simply an improved Dark Adept. The level 3 advancement is even basically a non-undead Lich. Unfortuneately, I don't have a clever idea on how to differentiate it from the Adept. Maybe someone else does.

Noble vs Warrior: the Captain advancement bothers me a little, IMHO it looks too strong. I was thinking about removing ledership from the captain/marshal line, but i'm not sure it fits well wiith their background.

I got an idea about these units from a conversation with Becephalus. How about removing the Captain, and making the Noble a 2nd level upgrade from the Fighter? The faction would lose leadership, but since it already has so many abilities, it can afford to. It would also lose pierce melee and some pierce ranged, but if the Hunter was made into more of a conventional crossbow unit, this loss could be borne as well.

Your proposed changes to the Shaman line seem fine, and I am glad of them - it has always seemed redundant to have 3 level 1 Shaman variants in the faction.

[Temuchin Khan]

Lizard Rider: see above, might still needs some changes, through.

Since the Lizard Rider has that 5-3 blade attack, I wouldn't mind at all if it had a less-capable charge attack than the Horseman.

Actually, if any level 1 unit in the game was highly effective with an exorbitant price, it should be the Lizard Rider.

When the Dark Elves were first designed, I commented on the effectiveness of the Lizard Rider. The response was that the Lizard Riders were the elites of the Dark Elf army.

I would suggest only minor stat changes but a significant price increase, to reflect the relative rarity of elite warriors compared to average warriors.

[Noyga]

Lizard Rider: see above, might still needs some changes, through.

Since the Lizard Rider has that 5-3 blade attack, I wouldn't mind at all if it had a less-capable charge attack than the Horseman.

Those lizards are described as "slower, but more powerful than the horses".
That's why i originally gave them +1 damage on the charge. I don't mind dropping this advantage since they have another attack.
I haven't checked their HP, but in my mind they should be a little more frail than the horse riders (the worse resistances might (or not) do the trick).
About the 5 move on mountains my idea was those creature would be at ease on hills, but because of the slope would start to have great difficulties with their rider on mountains. It is perharps excessive, i might change this to 4 moves.

I'm also thinking about changing their price from 22 to 24.

Wizard: I was thinking about reducing his HP...

This unit bothers me, since it is simply an improved Dark Adept. The level 3 advancement is even basically a non-undead Lich. Unfortuneately, I don't have a clever idea on how to differentiate it from the Adept. Maybe someone else does.

Well some elvish kind of Dark adept is exactly what they are supposed to be.

Sorcerers are Wizards that have gone deeper into the studying of the arcane arts. Their research consumes them in a quest for more power, leading them down a path toward the dark arts practiced by the Necromancers and Lichs. Their mighty cold blast can freeze any foe that dares to cross their path.

I'd see them a little more powerful, but also more frail.

Noble vs Warrior: the Captain advancement bothers me a little, IMHO it looks too strong. I was thinking about removing ledership from the captain/marshal line, but i'm not sure it fits well wiith their background.

I got an idea about these units from a conversation with Becephalus. How about removing the Captain, and making the Noble a 2nd level upgrade from the Fighter? The faction would lose leadership, but since it already has so many abilities, it can afford to. It would also lose pierce melee and some pierce ranged, but if the Hunter was made into more of a conventional crossbow unit, this loss could be borne as well.

There might be a background problem for a Warrior -> Noble advancement : they come from different social classes.
In fact the Noble was supposed to be some sort of hero unit, but i still included him, because i figured this would make Undead vs Dark Elf less boring.

[JW]

Split to this thread I state my support for changing the DE default resistance to Holy to 0% or 10%.

[Temuchin Khan]

I state my support for changing the DE default resistance to Holy to 0% or 10%.

I second the motion. The Dark Elves may be elves, but they are also deeply involved with black magic, and it is possible that this would have weakened their resistance to holy attacks.

[Noyga]

Here is what i have currently :

- Reworked Lizard riders movetype (lowered defense, slower on mountains)
- Set the holy resistance to 10% for mages and lizards (others have 0%)
- Increased the Lizard Rider cost from 22 to 24
- Removed poison from the Hunter line
- Increased the Hunter crossbow damage from 4-3 to 6-3
- Increased the Shadow crossbow damage from 5-4 to 7-4
- Increased the Stalker crossbow damage from 6-5 to 8-5
- Increased the Wizard cost from 19 to 21
- Decreased the Wizard HP from 30 to 25
- Decreased the Sorcerer HP from 45 to 40
- Decreased the Sorcerer HP from 61 to 52
- Decreased the Warlock melee from 6-4 to 4-4
- Decreased the Enchanteress cost from 20 to 19
- Decreased the Enchanteress ranged attack from 6-3 to 5-3
- Decreased the Enchanteress HP 32 to 27
- Decreased the Sorceress ranged attack from 7-4 to 6-4
- Decreased the Sorceress HP from 47 to 45
- Decreased the Enchanteress ranged attack from 10-4 to 9-4

Does this looks good ?
I might change the holy resistance to "everybody has 10%"
Now i need to do something for the Noble/Warriors lines

[ILikeProgramming]

I was just browsing this thread and found some propsed changes to the Dark Elf Lizard Rider.

- hills: 50% defense
- mountains: 40% defense
- caves: 40% defense

This seems so unrealistic. Less defense in caves than on hills when they live in caves? More defense on hills than on mountains?

[JW]

Looks pretty good at a glance. I'm a little disappointed that the Hunter lost Poison, but I understand the argument that they have too many specials. Too much Poison kinda removes its uniqueness anyway.

[Noyga]

I was just browsing this thread and found some propsed changes to the Dark Elf Lizard Rider.

- hills: 50% defense
- mountains: 40% defense
- caves: 40% defense

This seems so unrealistic. Less defense in caves than on hills when they live in caves? More defense on hills than on mountains?

- Hills vs Caves : the idea is allow them to have a better defense in rockbound caves, so caves would look less bland.
- Hills vs Mountains : see a few posts above.

[Anul]

I have a question:
Why all the factions in EE have a unit that can be used in water (e.g. mermen, nagas, eagles, bats), but Steppe Orcs have not?

Steppe Orcs in maps with water are very weak, don't you think so?
Why don't add nagas to Steppe Orcs race, maybe rebalancing other units, or add another water unit weaker than naga developed just for Steppe Orcs?

[Noyga]

Because i did not state on what i would give to them (nor asked Zhukov what he thinks about this). This faction dynamic is quite unusual, maybe they don't need one at all (for the moment i tend to agree with you that they will need one). Currently i've been focusing on other problems.
Btw i also have 2 extra naga lines (Hunter, Guardian) that aren't available outside the RPG era : shall i make them recruitable for some faction, and which ones ?

[Anul]

I've read an old but very interesting discussion about a green mage:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8117

Why there wasn't any attempt to add a mage like in the forum above in the EE?
I think that he could be added in the elves and/or loyalist trees.

I say this becuse I saw that EE was born after the above thread about green mage...

[Noyga]

They aren't well defined and doesn't add much to the Loyalists and look duplicate with the elvish sorceresses.
There is enough types of mages IMHO.

[ILikeProgramming]

I was just browsing this thread and found some propsed changes to the Dark Elf Lizard Rider.
This seems so unrealistic. Less defense in caves than on hills when they live in caves? More defense on hills than on mountains?

- Hills vs Caves : the idea is allow them to have a better defense in rockbound caves, so caves would look less bland.

Ok

- Hills vs Mountains : see a few posts above.

I didn't see anything about it in the past couple pages.