Presence of Ambush etc. in MP? Issues and ideas.
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Elvish_Pillager
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What? Attacking a unit in the same hex?Garion wrote:Oh! What if the Ambusher got a free attack on any enemy that stopped in its hex, and then displaced the enemy unit back one space in the direction he came from?
Anyway, we already went over what happens if the Ambusher gets a free attack...
It only keeps people from using the undo trick because it punishes them horribly for stepping in forest. Therefore, it's overpowered!Besides, what if there's a unit on the hex it came from?
However, I do like the idea of "Ambusher is completely nonexistent" except for the fact that it means that it doesn't ambush anything and basically is a temporary loss of a unit. It would make the ambusher actually *lose* capability on its 'preferred' terrain.
I'm sure there's a way to make this work, though.
(of course there is - make the unit NOT GO INVISIBLE, and all the problems vanish. But I'm trying to preserve the original intent here...)
I agree completely with Turin about idiotic and time-wasting strategies. Zhukov, there's a fine line between "optimal strategy" and "feature abuse", and my opinion is that within the game, that's a division between what the game allows, and what it doesn't. (Outside of the actual game, there's saveloading, and also modifying data files - anything outside of the game that has effects in-game is abusive.)
Ooh I have a cool idea... or the beginnings of an idea... I'll get back to you guys on it.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
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Elvish_Pillager
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It seems to me that there's a fundemental problem here. Whatever Ambush does, one of the following must happen:
1) It doesn't hide the unit.
2) the undo trick is possible.
3) undo is disallowed whenever an ambusher could possibly have been revealed.
4) the unit loses its physical existence, making it lose Zone of Control and unit-blocking when invisible.
If 1, 2 and 3 are not the case, then there must be no case in which making a move gives you knowledge of the ambusher in a way that a different move doesn't, and thus any move across a forest must be the same, allowing you to move freely[1], and thus the ambusher can't block the units when it's invisible.
The question is, which is the least of four evils?
1 doesn't seem like a problem to me
but I understand a lot of people are against it in principle.
2 can cause strange play - either really blockheaded strategies like the undo trick, or lucky guessing about where the unit is or isn't leading to stupid psychological games, or naive charging into forest as if there was no ambusher there.
3 is an awful nuisance.
and with 4, having an "Ambusher" lose its ability to block because of its ability is entirely counterintuitive, weird, and reduces its power. It also becomes a potential RIPLIB concern (although no standard units are affected.)
[1] this ignores the possiblility that Ambush makes the unit exert Zone of Control as if it was everywhere the victim could possibly think it was, while still not being revealed if the victim goes next to the actual unit. I hope we all agree that this isn't a good effect for Ambush to have.
1) It doesn't hide the unit.
2) the undo trick is possible.
3) undo is disallowed whenever an ambusher could possibly have been revealed.
4) the unit loses its physical existence, making it lose Zone of Control and unit-blocking when invisible.
If 1, 2 and 3 are not the case, then there must be no case in which making a move gives you knowledge of the ambusher in a way that a different move doesn't, and thus any move across a forest must be the same, allowing you to move freely[1], and thus the ambusher can't block the units when it's invisible.
The question is, which is the least of four evils?
1 doesn't seem like a problem to me
but I understand a lot of people are against it in principle.2 can cause strange play - either really blockheaded strategies like the undo trick, or lucky guessing about where the unit is or isn't leading to stupid psychological games, or naive charging into forest as if there was no ambusher there.
3 is an awful nuisance.
and with 4, having an "Ambusher" lose its ability to block because of its ability is entirely counterintuitive, weird, and reduces its power. It also becomes a potential RIPLIB concern (although no standard units are affected.)
[1] this ignores the possiblility that Ambush makes the unit exert Zone of Control as if it was everywhere the victim could possibly think it was, while still not being revealed if the victim goes next to the actual unit. I hope we all agree that this isn't a good effect for Ambush to have.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
This is not addressing the undo cheating problem, but the zone of control one
I don't know if this is actually possible, as it requires somebody making a choice when it isn't their turn, but you could get an option about weather to ambush the guy, or just ingore him and let him pass by.
gameplay wise this wouldn't be a problem, because in single player, the computer isn't affected because it doesn't consider the time that it stakes for it's unit to move. and in multiplayer it will just seem like your computer is playing up on you because of the connection (if they choose to ignore).
another option would be to have a dialogue box come up when the unit gets into a position where it can ambush, and there you choose weather to attack the enemy units, or ignore them.
anyway, just thought I'd throw my idea out there.
I don't know if this is actually possible, as it requires somebody making a choice when it isn't their turn, but you could get an option about weather to ambush the guy, or just ingore him and let him pass by.
gameplay wise this wouldn't be a problem, because in single player, the computer isn't affected because it doesn't consider the time that it stakes for it's unit to move. and in multiplayer it will just seem like your computer is playing up on you because of the connection (if they choose to ignore).
another option would be to have a dialogue box come up when the unit gets into a position where it can ambush, and there you choose weather to attack the enemy units, or ignore them.
anyway, just thought I'd throw my idea out there.
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Deathblower
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To be honest like you said, it would alter the TBS theme if someone was to make a decision about something during your turn.
Also, what if the other player took a long time making their decision?
I don't think it would work in multiplayer, and therefore (as you can't have two sets of rules for each different gameplay type) it probably won't work.
DB
Also, what if the other player took a long time making their decision?
I don't think it would work in multiplayer, and therefore (as you can't have two sets of rules for each different gameplay type) it probably won't work.
DB
Just a short dude with a lot of time . . .
you could have him only be displacable to a contiguous forest. This would allow the ambusher to be revealed if you put a unit in every hex of the forest, but that wouldn't be possible most of the time...Garion wrote:I guess a third option would be to displace the ambusher without revealing him, but that could cause all sorts of weirdness, including pushing him into illegal terrain or even into a hex which can't hide him.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Elvish_Pillager
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Tell me again whay making the unit disappear on the beginning of its turn and having the unit remove ambushed enemies' moves and attacks isn't a plausible option?
1) Undoing still is possible, though it is not necessary for a turn as the unit hides, and therefore will be less common.
2) The use of undoing is lessened as it removes the scout units attacks as well as movement, so there is still a penalty for jerking the game.
3) Comps knowing where the unit is will also be punished by the removal of attacks therefore lessening their effectiveness against an Ambusher.
4) Ambushing has has purposes it's intended to have IMO.
The only problem I see with it is that it makes the Ranger pretty powerful again. Removing a unit's attacks is a big deal, so this feature would have to be balanced on the unit somehow.
1) Undoing still is possible, though it is not necessary for a turn as the unit hides, and therefore will be less common.
2) The use of undoing is lessened as it removes the scout units attacks as well as movement, so there is still a penalty for jerking the game.
3) Comps knowing where the unit is will also be punished by the removal of attacks therefore lessening their effectiveness against an Ambusher.
4) Ambushing has has purposes it's intended to have IMO.
The only problem I see with it is that it makes the Ranger pretty powerful again. Removing a unit's attacks is a big deal, so this feature would have to be balanced on the unit somehow.
Removing the ambushed unit's attacks is really nasty. Why? Take two units off on the side of the battlefield, neither has support.
Unit U walks up to ambusher A, is ambushed. A is badly injured and doesnt want to risk dying, so he doesn't attack.
On his turn, A takes a step back.
U walks up to A again, is ambushed again.
Repeat ad nauseam.
To prevent this, I'd say that an ambusher cannot set an ambush if it started the turn in enemy ZoC.
Unit U walks up to ambusher A, is ambushed. A is badly injured and doesnt want to risk dying, so he doesn't attack.
On his turn, A takes a step back.
U walks up to A again, is ambushed again.
Repeat ad nauseam.
To prevent this, I'd say that an ambusher cannot set an ambush if it started the turn in enemy ZoC.
What saves a man is to take a step. Then another step. It is always the same step, but you have to take it. -- You-know-who
The Kingdom Of Loathing Era
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No, not FINISHED the turn in enemy ZoC, STARTED it! That is, if at the beginning of ranger's turn, he's next to an enemy, he cannot set up an ambush at the end of turn.
What saves a man is to take a step. Then another step. It is always the same step, but you have to take it. -- You-know-who
The Kingdom Of Loathing Era
The Kingdom Of Loathing Era
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Elvish_Pillager
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This situation is why, in the original proposal, the unit doesn't go invisible until the beginning of its turn. Read the whole idea next time.drachefly wrote:Removing the ambushed unit's attacks is really nasty. Why? Take two units off on the side of the battlefield, neither has support.
Unit U walks up to ambusher A, is ambushed. A is badly injured and doesnt want to risk dying, so he doesn't attack.
On his turn, A takes a step back.
U walks up to A again, is ambushed again.
Repeat ad nauseam.
(by the way, this is currently my favored idea - it doesnt't punish the player too much for getting ambushed, doesn't punish them too little for intentionally getting ambushed, still has a real, useful effect when not under FOG, and still isn't nearly so strong that we'd have to nerf the Ranger again.)
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
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Ken_Oh
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He means if the turn -started- in the enemy's ZoC.
Still, it doesn't really matter because he's only talking hypothetically, if there was an ambush upgrade where you get free attacks, someone with ambush could just keep on backing up.
Rather than suggesting ways to fix the hypothetical situation, I think it's a good sign that free attacks aren't a good way to go.
btwbtw, anyone notice how Avenger is still one of the favorite units, even though Ambush isn't that useful? http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=363
EDIT: I hate when I'm this slow on the reply.
Still, it doesn't really matter because he's only talking hypothetically, if there was an ambush upgrade where you get free attacks, someone with ambush could just keep on backing up.
Rather than suggesting ways to fix the hypothetical situation, I think it's a good sign that free attacks aren't a good way to go.
btwbtw, anyone notice how Avenger is still one of the favorite units, even though Ambush isn't that useful? http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=363
EDIT: I hate when I'm this slow on the reply.