New "wild elf" faction

Disto · Post by **Disto** » October 17th, 2005, 4:38 pm

Temuchin Khan wrote:
Casual User wrote:Why are Dark Elves un-Wesnothish ?
I don't know, but I sometimes wonder if Turin calls things "un-Wesnothian" if they're not found in or were not an inspiration for Tolkien.

Well, actually Dark Elves are found in Tolkien:

1) Orcs were bred from Elves captured by Morgoth.

2) Any elf who never set forth on the journey to Valinor was called a "Dark Elf" -- "Moriquendi" in Elvish.

These Dark Elves seem to combine Tolkien's Dark Elves and Tolkien's Orcs, with a healthy dose of imagination.

Well i think that when Turin says they are un-Wesnothish it means they don't have little niche they fill, the same reasons why the Lavinians won't get in. We already have dwarfs, trolls and orcs who stereotypically live underground.

-> What i might be working on · Post by **Eleazar** » October 17th, 2005, 4:46 pm

Temuchin Khan wrote:Well, actually Dark Elves are found in Tolkien:

1) Orcs were bred from Elves captured by Morgoth.

2) Any elf who never set forth on the journey to Valinor was called a "Dark Elf" -- "Moriquendi" in Elvish.

Tolkein's "dark" elves = Tolkien's "normal" elves.
Nearly every Elf in LOTR was one of the Moriquendi (sp?).
The closest a Tolkeinian elf ever got to being evil was Eol (sp?) in the silmarillion. But he was a twisted solitary exception, and more selfish and cranky, than destructively evil.

Tolkein never goes into much detail on the Elves->Orc process, but one can only assume there was an awful lot of Genetic Engineering/Magic that went into that trasformation.

I don't know what being Tolkein like has to do with getting into the game, but at least sticking close makes things familiar.

De Cock Hans · Post by **De Cock Hans** » October 17th, 2005, 7:25 pm

There are other sources then LOTR.

See the books by Raymond E. Feist (22 I believe in total)

In these books the dark elves are called Moredhel and they are really evil.

They figth against the humans and the 'normal' (wood) elves. They are allied with trolls and orcs.

In these books there are also references to a wild, sligtly mad branch of the elves.

So for me the 'wild elves' idea is OK (for there name I have to check the books).

I believe there was even an RPG game about them base on the books. (called Krondor in Dutch maybe something else in English)

For those who have doubts : I love elves even the dark ones

unsung · Post by **unsung** » October 17th, 2005, 7:27 pm

Speaking of trolls, why did sauron make his war trolls bother with breast plates? Not that hard to stab through a foot-wide chink with your pike for a human after all.

Anyar · Post by **Anyar** » October 17th, 2005, 7:30 pm

It's still defense. And arrows would probably be more of a problem to the troll, which the plate would defend against well.

Post by **turin** » October 17th, 2005, 9:34 pm

I've never accused undead of being un-Wesnothish, and they're not found in Tolkien, to my knowledge at least.

I call things un-Wesnothish if, in my extremely subjective opinion, they don't fit. That's my system. So, basically all factions that have been proposed in the last 6 months are un-Wesnothish.

HOWEVER. I think that this Wild Elves / Sidhe faction may actually make the cut into Wesnothishness. It depends on how it develops.

Cuyo Quiz · Post by **Cuyo Quiz** » October 17th, 2005, 9:50 pm

Factions in the lasts months have been more historical than fantastic. so no conflict.

I do like the idea, but i think that the size of the faction is too great as to be unique/balanceable.

And the Drakes were a concept too revolutionary in fantasy as to not be accepted.

Post by **turin** » October 17th, 2005, 10:40 pm

Well, yeah... but, with all new faction propositions, you must take it as a given that the number of unit trees will decrease by two to four...

Post by **Kestenvarn** » October 18th, 2005, 12:51 am

As long as there's a herald, an elven berserker, and an undead I'll be happy.

Thunderblade · Post by **Thunderblade** » October 18th, 2005, 1:46 am

Hi, friends! =)

Sorry for taking so long to answer, but I had a full weekend... Although I didnt mess with the elves a lot, I still got some time to think about your suggestions, and to come up with a revised unit tree...

You shall notice that I've tried to limit the number of special abilities to four or five (charge, berserk, skirmish, leadership and maybe backstab). On doing this, I tried to balance this new faction with some of the existing ones (humans and rebels have similar numbers of abilities and a water based unit - something that puts our "wild elves" in disadvantage when fighting at shores and/or swamps).To do this change, I've taken into account (mainly) the comments of Cuyo Quiz - perhaps trying to focus on a more specific archetype would do the job just fine... =) Casual User also made a very useful comment about the effectiveness of a berserk ranged attack, and, as you may see, I've changed that also (I'm thinking about increasing the unit number of attacks... what do you think?)

So... here's the new unit tree:

Sidhe Warrior -> Bladespinner -> Wardancer
Sidhe Warrior -> Veiledblade (Backstab) -> Shadowdancer (Backstab)
Sidhe Warrior -> Herald (Leadership) -> Warsinger (Leadership)

Sidhe Tracker -> Sidhe Wanderer (Skirmish) -> Sidhe Windrunner (Skirmish)

Sidhe Bowman -> Sidhe Treetop Raider (Skirmish) -> Sidhe Leafkiller (Skirmish)
Sidhe Bowman -> Sidhe Stalker -> Sidhe Leafstorm

Sidhe Charger (Charge) -> Sidhe Spearhead (Charge) -> Sidhe Horsemaster (Charge / Skirmish)

Sidhe Raindancer -> Sidhe Windlasher -> Sidhe Tempest -> Sidhe Stormlord
Sidhe Raindancer -> Sidhe Warrior-Magus -> Sidhe Thunderblade

Sidhe Fury (Berserk) -> Sidhe Wildblade (Berserk) -> Sidhe Whirlwind (Berserk / Charge)

Warrior Spirit -> Sidhe Ancestor (Regeneration)

So, the guidelines remain as follows:
- *wild* elves: they're hard to control, as many tend to get right into the eye of the storm, desperately charging or entering some sort of battle trance. The charge + berserk Whirlwind is specially chaotic - way too dangerous to fight, and way too dangerous to use.
- "nobility" unit tree: the raindancer tree differs from the others not just in graphics, but in concept, as does the undead line.
- identity: healing didnt fit well, as well as ambush. so, I've taken these abilities out... what do you think? better now, or should I revert to the old tree?
- Sidhe Warrior: now, this unit becomes the faction standard "trooper", with three available trees (Wardance, Warsong and Silence). I really enjoyed doing the herald unit line, but a lvl 1 leader would have no effect... This way it's more efficient, and (at least I think so) more beautiful too

Finally, I thank for all of you comments and suggestions... some of them I shall answer here:

scott - indeed, they shall be chaotic... =) This is not related to "real" alignment (something like a good x evil axis), but to their affinity for the moon, clouds, and storms (I'm sure some of you will recall Tolkien's Noldor here)... anyway, thanks for your comment! =)

Temuchin - I'm glad you enjoyed this faction! I must confess that the discussions you and some other fellow players are having around the far-east faction encouraged me to try these Sidhe... As a coincidence, this is also an old idea of mine that was triggered by friday's storm... =)

Cuyo Quiz - as you may see, I've followed your advice, and indeed think that the faction has got more "identity" now... thanks for your help!

Gryphonlord - glad you liked it! =) And I would gladly accept your help, too! I shall put my msn at the end of this post, so that you may contact me

Kestenvarn - thanks, friend! I also enjoyed a lot your portrait... and would gladly accept your help too! As I've told gryphonlord on the lines above, I shall put my msn account name bellow, and we may speak better about the faction development

Casual User - indeed, it was overpowered. Maybe just switching to a high number of attacks will do the trick (obs.: we thought about this guy fighting magicians, when it was designed... they would kill him very easily. but, as that can be easily avoided - specially combining him with the other berserking elf - I've changed the leafstorm). As to your second post, I shall say that while agreeing to some topics, I disagree on others - they are, indeed, warlike and such. But in a very elegant way - the "dancing" aspect comes here. The songs are indeed a component of fear (just remember that scene in the Last Samurai, where katsumoto's troops shout amidst the woods... Now, imagine some shadows coming running through these same woods, arrows flying, blades dancing... And these elves singing loud and clear... that gets even me afraid!), not just of surprise... They're frightening, but still honoured... Anyway, you showed a wonderful concept, and your suggestions where very valuable in rebalancing these units! =)

xtifr - thanks for your comment! I was thinking about changeling's sidhe (someone here ever played that wonderful game?) when designing the "nobility" tree - they would have voices proud as thunder, able to turn even the harshest foe to pieces... anyway, the name is not set... yet!

Once more, please excuse me for taking so much time to answer, and writing such long replies. I've got few time to post here, and just once in the last three days...

Oh, yes - my account name: roberto_simiqueli@yahoo.com.br
For those willing to take part into the project, just contact me! I'm indeed in need of help... =)

Thunderblade · Post by **Thunderblade** » October 18th, 2005, 2:27 am

P.S.: I was thinking about a campaign, too - involving mainly the spirits, ancestors and sidhe nobility... I have some mithology/history here - should I post it here?

Casual User · Post by **Casual User** » October 18th, 2005, 3:43 am

Good afternoon!

1. A few more comments :

I. You have too much skirmish. If you ask me, only the tracker line and the shadowdancer should have skirmish.

II. Why no ambush ? If you ask me, a great way to establish a certain personality for them would be to give them abundant ambush, making them a very unpredictable faction. Unpredictability seems to be in line with them. The stalker could have ambush as the range berserker was removed.

III. You can only have one special per attack, so berserker+charge cannot be. It would also be overkill, berserker entails the equivalent of a number of charges.

2. A personal finding :

I once sketched down some 'dark elves' which were actually more what I talked about earlier. I went in definitely different directions, and it shows in the stats, but I thought you might be interested.

The original lvl 1's are the dark elf warrior (a mixed fighter with 5 moves, 17gp), dark elf woodsman (a weaker type, as strong as warrior at range but weaker in melee, but with ambush and 6 moves, 14gp) and the dark elf sorcerer (an offensive mage-type which uses cold magic, 5 moves, 20gp). All of the lvl 1's are woodland movetype with {LESS_NIMBLE_ELF} Here are the branches :

d. elf warrior -> d. elf swordsman -> d. elf bladesman
(swordsman-type, keeps the bow but only develops the sword, lvl 3 gets marksman for sword, Ã‚Â{LESS_NIMBLE_ELF} but rather tough)

d. elf warrior -> d. elf bowman -> d. elf archer
(archer-type, keeps the sword but only develops the bow, lvl 3 gets marksman for bow, Ã‚Â{LESS_NIMBLE_ELF} but rather tough)

d. elf woodsman -> d. elf forester -> d. elf ranger
(mixed fighter, ambush, normal woodland)

d. elf woodsman -> d. elf ambusher -> d. elf assassin
(archer-type, rather weak but backstab for bow, {LESS_NIMBLE_ELF})

d. elf sorcerer -> green sorcerer -> green warlock
(rather weak offensive magic, snakestaff with poison for melee and has regeneration, normal woodland but rather frail)

d. elf sorcerer -> black sorcerer -> black warlock
(fairly strong offensive magic, gains nightstalk, {LESS_NIMBLE_ELF} and rather frail)

3. A proposal :

I am very much unskilled in artwork, but I could help with making cfg files and other scripting. Anyway, let me know if you need some help.

Post by **Thrawn** » October 18th, 2005, 2:15 pm

No, you're not allowed to post youir Ideas on your own thread!!What are you thinking

I too am obsessed with elves, and like weird ideas, and would be glad to hear them.

Cuyo Quiz · Post by **Cuyo Quiz** » October 18th, 2005, 7:55 pm

I like the new tree, oh yes i do. I want to use that Ancestor RIGHT NOW.

II. Why no ambush ? If you ask me, a great way to establish a certain personality for them would be to give them abundant ambush, making them a very unpredictable faction. Unpredictability seems to be in line with them. The stalker could have ambush as the range berserker was removed.

- *wild* elves: they're hard to control, as many tend to get right into the eye of the storm, desperately charging or entering some sort of battle trance. The charge + berserk Whirlwind is specially chaotic - way too dangerous to fight, and way too dangerous to use.

I think he meant unpredictable as in "i'll chop your head off... with a spoon", so IMO not having ambush actually fits them. One may doubt about savage warriors actually having leadership or skirmish, but for now it seems to work, so meh.

Post by **turin** » October 18th, 2005, 9:27 pm

7 trees?

reduce it to 5. 7 is both too much to have an interesting faction*, and too much to hope to get art for.

I suggest removing the Charger line (it seems out of place to me), and either the bowman line (which seems to similar to the current elvish archer; and out of place, because the Sidhe shouldn't be good at ranged weapons), or the fury (they seem to have enough special abilities already).

*: You can search for previous posts by me about this topic. It is one of my fundamental theorems of faction design... I might post a list of those someday.