Swamplings Art Thread - comments greatly appreciated

[boru]

For the torchlight, I'll try to do my best, maybe it wil not be as cool as it should

It's certainly worth a try, I think it will be excellent.

About the club: I don't know if this type of weapon is very common and how you handle it, I just know that I witnessed a collection of primitive weapons from south-east asian isles and these bird-like clubs were very common, can't remember which tribe it was since I was a child then. I suppose that you had to hit with the head and not with the beak since it was very thin.

There's no real reason we have to use common weapons. I do feel the beak ought to be thinner, for practicality's sake. We don't have to be totally realistic though.

I read about a fisher's mace from a tribe of Africa that looked like a fish, too, so I think that many primitive tribes prefer handling animal-like weapons.
If the ornate club does not fit, I will give her a crude wooden piece.

No, I don't want to take the fun out of it. Please continue with the bird club.

About the patterns: I agree it would be a problem if the colors were of black and white, but not if it's light brown and dark brown, you see (and in fact, the natural stealthsuits are often made of geometric figures: see the zebras and the tigers). I really think that geometric figures are better than even color in terms of stealth, contrary to what one may think.

Another reason why I kept geometric patterns is that it's very difficult to do non-geometric patterns with a primitive weaving tool. In fact, I don't know of primitive tribes that use non-geometric patterns.

But I won't make a mess about this all. After all, what is true is not necessary what seems true, and g33ks generally have their idea of what must be the truth (and I formally recognize I am one).

In my opinion, the best primitive stealthsuit that has been ever practiced relies on body painting, but since nudism is a concern, what else?
No, I will not give her a G.I.'s stealthsuit, nor a Dungeons&Dragons-thief's black cape (which is the most pathetic stealthsuit I have ever seen, unless one tries to be spotted). I don't see any reason why she should conceal her face, either. But if someone has an idea of non-geometric pattern that could seem to be handmade, I'll take it.

Your point about tigers and zebra is a good one. As long as the colors are not too contrasty, it should be fine. No reason to cover her face, she's not a robber. And a black cape is ridiculously impractical, especially in a swamp.

*whispers * shhh, nudity is a taboo among mormon tribes. They are sensitive on the breast subject...

Heh. Well, I don't want to go too far afield from the mainline traditions. In fact, I hope Swamplings will eventually be welcomed as a mainline campaign.

Okay; this is fictional, isn't it?
You know, the nambikwara tribe used to have female warriors. The chief generally has a wife and 2-3 playmates that also serve as elite bodyguards and hunters. In fact, if a girl shows a knack to hunting and warfare, why would they lose the benefit of a skilled warrior? I think the primitives are basically realistic, otherwise they would starve.

I'm almost certain it's fictional.

[johndh]

Personally I don't know what the fuss is about not having clothes on non-human races. Should the horses wear clothing?

We don't exactly zoom in on a horse's genitals, either.

Officially, I don't think those races permit their women to wage war, which would explain the dearth of sprites. But what if the menfolk are out hunting and their camp is surrounded by enemies? I think the ladies would defend their own lives, not some taboo about women in combat. It would be cool to see a campaign about some troll Joan of Arc.

I'm doing a lot of speculation here, but what if they have females all over the place and we just can't tell the difference at a glance? If you look at a cat, you can't tell its sex right away unless you examine its junk or it's a lactating female. As far as I know, the only animals on Earth that have breasts when they're not pregnant or lactating are humans. Thus, if we don't know what a female orc looks like, we don't really have a reason to believe they have breasts all the time either. A female orc without breasts would probably look an awful lot like a male orc, especially when covered in armor or one of those cool assassin jumpsuits. That would make it much harder to tell the difference. Also, we don't really have any reason to believe that female orcs are any smaller or less robust than males, as it's mainly competition over mating opportunities that leads to that kind of sexual dimorphism, and (AFAIK) we have nothing telling us whether that exists in orcish society or not. Maybe there's no such thing as a "true orc" female, only half-orcs and goblins (unlikely given the litter size). Maybe females are even bigger than male orcs. We don't know, so unless somebody steps in and lays down some new lore, there are tons of possibilities here.

And by the way, hunter-gatherer and horticultural societies tend to be much more egalitarian in terms of gender than agricultural or industrialized ones. Maybe they only send their men out on the warpath, but if there's a tiger loose in the camp, you can bet some women are going to be grabbing spears.

About the club:

It's the same principle as wearing feathers or animal furs with the features intact. A lot of groups believe that they gain some sort of mystical/spiritual connection with the animal. So, according to their logic, making your club look like a fish very well might make it better at beating other fish. If those Australian aborigines are familiar with the cassowary (basically a modern velociraptor), I can certainly see why they would want that associated with something they use to kill people, so the bird club makes sense. For our goblin lady, if you don't like the bird idea, some other animal could work quite well, like a crocodile or whatever beasts the tribe is familiar with.

About the patterns:

Yeah, solid colors are garbage for stealth. The two important things in camouflage are blending in, and breaking up the silhouette. Even wearing a red and green plaid shirt in the woods will give you some concealment, whereas wearing a solid brown shirt will likely get you spotted pretty quickly. I have a whole bunch of photos I took of some traditional Peruvian textiles for an anthropology project. I can resize and upload them if you want to take a look for some concept inspiration.

In my opinion, the best primitive stealthsuit that has been ever practiced relies on body painting, but since nudism is a concern, what else?

You could paint up her bare skin and put a nice geo pattern on her clothes. Combined, I think that would be effective camouflage.

If it seems like I'm doing a lot of bike shedding here, it's because I'm busy earning my minor in anthropology, so this kind of stuff is very much relevant to my interests and education.

[Midnight_Carnival]

I liked the clothing style becasue the patterns and the cut of the clothing made the Goblin look like an African lady. If that were the case, the patterns would be in earth-colours, even if bright earth colours. Hiding something or someone is not so hard, remember that soldier are looking for Goblins, ie: small hairy guys with crude rusted weapons in dull leather and stolen ramshackel armor, something that doesn't look like a Goblin (or ale) will probably be ignored, especially in a mosquito-infested swamp.

[boru]

I'm doing a lot of speculation here, but what if they have females all over the place and we just can't tell the difference at a glance?

It is a bit amazing that we still haven't sorted all this out yet, but yeah. Son of the Black Eye gave us a lot of info on orcish culture, with the shamans and all, but there are still some big unknowns.

For our goblin lady, if you don't like the bird idea, some other animal could work quite well, like a crocodile or whatever beasts the tribe is familiar with.

Somehow a club with a mosquito on it wouldn't have the same, uh, impact. The bird idea is fine.

I have a whole bunch of photos I took of some traditional Peruvian textiles for an anthropology project. I can resize and upload them if you want to take a look for some concept inspiration.

Let's see what GangrN says. He's inspired to begin with.

If it seems like I'm doing a lot of bike shedding here, it's because I'm busy earning my minor in anthropology, so this kind of stuff is very much relevant to my interests and education.

I meant it when I said "comments greatly appreciated."

@ MC - We're taking a few liberties with the facial features, but in the end she will look goblin.

[johndh]

It is a bit amazing that we still haven't sorted all this out yet, but yeah. Son of the Black Eye gave us a lot of info on orcish culture, with the shamans and all, but there are still some big unknowns.

I guess that means you get dibs on setting a precedent.

Somehow a club with a mosquito on it wouldn't have the same, uh, impact.

Skeeter Club, melee, 2-5 piercing, drains

I liked the clothing style becasue the patterns and the cut of the clothing made the Goblin look like an African lady. If that were the case, the patterns would be in earth-colours, even if bright earth colours.

Dressing like a sub-Saharan African woman doesn't make a lick of sense if you live, fight, and hunt in a swamp, though. Long skirts would get soaked in muddy water and become waterlogged and heavy. They'd get tangled in brush and branches. I think taking inspiration from savanna-dwellers for a swamp-dwelling people isn't the best route.

Here are some depictions of a real-life group of swamp-dwelling hunters and warriors, the Seminole tribe of the Florida Everglades:
Long Jack, Seminole warrior
Chief Osceola
Osceola again
Seminole elder (modern reenactment)
Mounted Seminole warrior (modern reenactment)
More Seminole warriors (modern reenactment)
Seminole warrior (old stamp?)

[GangrN]

Oh, I almost forgot. The troll boulderlobber (lvl 3) has no sprite.
You could use Grog's sprite from the sojourns of grog (troll with red bandana), or use the same as lvl2 (after all it's the one and only troll, there is no point making a difference between 2 levels).

Edit: urgh! not the good thread! sorry.

[GangrN]

err

I took a look on your links on seminole warriors. It's very flashy, where is the disco strass ball? lol
I don't mean it is not a good stealthsuit by night. I think it can be, especially since they are clad in red hues (except for white feathers): red looks black under moonlight (since it is mainly ultraviolet light)
Like johndh also said, better than I did:

The two important things in camouflage are blending in, and breaking up the silhouette. Even wearing a red and green plaid shirt in the woods will give you some concealment, whereas wearing a solid brown shirt will likely get you spotted pretty quickly.

But in that case, I think gamers will think it unbelievable for a stealth unit, even if it may be true.

My (ab)original inspiration was rather like this (beware! you can see nude people here ):
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/juliesm.chen ... l=a&fid=15
http://img3.photographersdirect.com/img ... 939603.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3009/249 ... aba3ef.jpg
http://img2.photographersdirect.com/img ... 742849.jpg
http://www.fotogeschichte.info/uploads/ ... 250_02.jpg (caduveo)
http://static-p3.fotolia.com/jpg/00/00/ ... 7d9fgq.jpg
http://www.geo.fr/var/geo/storage/image ... 40x705.jpg (caduveo)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dfyWISO77Xk/S ... +Tribe.jpg (Omo tribe)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_h3HborB6LT8/S ... al+man.jpg (aboriginal)
http://www.amazonz.info/xingu/05-indige ... inting.jpg (amazonian)


The mounted Seminole warrior's head is pretty the way I imagined the goblin rider first. It seems that red has some success in general.
(for the role of goblin females: there are many examples of female warriors or chieftains among primitive tribes, be it caduveo or nambikwara for the few I read. In fact, Clammie's tribe could have special and unique ways, so I don't think you should be worried. And, after all, it's F.A.N.T.A.S.Y. )

Johndh said something about Peruvian textiles? It could be great indeed if it's not too flashy

It's up to boru to decide in that case: rather a hat or a ribbon?
Facial paintings?
More body paintings? in that case, her shoulders must be naked like the caduveo girls'.

For now, I assume that the bird weapon is ok.

[boru]

But in that case, I think gamers will think it unbelievable for a stealth unit, even if it may be true.

This is a very good point. Even if it's 100% realistic and authentic, but the player thinks it looks phoney, then all the research in the world won't matter.

It's up to boru to decide in that case: rather a hat or a ribbon?
Facial paintings?
More body paintings? in that case, her shoulders must be naked like the caduveo girls'.
For now, I assume that the bird weapon is ok.

I think the hat from your previous sketch is fine. If you don't like it and want to do a ribbon or headscarf instead, that's okay with me. The Peruvian textiles you linked to look good. If you can integrate that somewhere into her costume, that would be fine. Facial painting is fine, naked shoulders are fine, and bird club is fine.

Other than that, everything is fine.

[GangrN]

Hi there

This is an inking of the aforementioned sketch. The lines need to be more defined. They are somewhat blurred since my hand is not as sure with the tablet as with an iron pen, but I am currently working on it. (in fact, it seems I didn't zoom enough). I began giving some 3D-effect, but not quite finished.
I need you to spot the imperfections in the inking, though. If some skilled CG artist could help me it would be great, because I have a hard time seeing the imperfections on a work I am currently working on.
The right hand is not well shaped, for now. Have to fix it.
What about the clothing folds? Is it correct?


Regards

[artisticdude]

The weapon haft looks like it should be resting on her shoulder, but it doesn't touch her shoulder at all.

Other than that, looks fine to me.

[johndh]

I realize this seems to be the default Wesnoth way to hold a weapon when it's not being used, but there are plenty of viable ways to hold a stick when you're not actively thumping people with it.

[bera]

Hi,

I believe you don't have the pressure sensitivity properly set on your system. That must be why your linework is so struggling on a closer look (I had the same problem till a few weeks ago and setting it up really made it feel so much easier). Also seems to me you may want her left lower arm to show next to her waist to make it a more natural stance, otherwise looks like it's tied to her back.

[GangrN]

I realize this seems to be the default Wesnoth way to hold a weapon when it's not being used, but there are plenty of viable ways to hold a stick when you're not actively thumping people with it.

Did not really understand what you mean: you mean she may wear the club not on her shoulder?
It's true, but too late :-]
next time

I believe you don't have the pressure sensitivity properly set on your system. That must be why your linework is so struggling on a closer look (I had the same problem till a few weeks ago and setting it up really made it feel so much easier). Also seems to me you may want her left lower arm to show next to her waist to make it a more natural stance, otherwise looks like it's tied to her back.

Well, for the pressure sensitivity, it seems that linux solutions are not fully satisfying. I also saww that with more zoom, I have no such problems. Have to somehow fix it, yes.
You think her left hand is not in a natural way? well, it is the way I would put it myself
Oh, but wait, I see. Women have larger hips, so they naturally put their hand on it
Embarrassing indeed

[boru]

I think what Bera means is, if she had her hand on her hip like that (assuming she has a human bone structure), some of that arm would be visible, because it would be uncomfortable to tilt her elbow back so far.

I think the image is looking fine. Just a few nitpicks. I would like the "beak" on the club to be smaller or thinner, so that it will not be mistaken for a piercing weapon. And the other end of the club should probably not have a straight edge. Clothing folds look okay to my non-artist eyes.

[GangrN]

I think what Bera means is, if she had her hand on her hip like that (assuming she has a human bone structure), some of that arm would be visible, because it would be uncomfortable to tilt her elbow back so far.

I think I see what you mean.

I think the image is looking fine. Just a few nitpicks. I would like the "beak" on the club to be smaller or thinner, so that it will not be mistaken for a piercing weapon. And the other end of the club should probably not have a straight edge. Clothing folds look okay to my non-artist eyes.

You mean a sort of pommel?