Luck in Wesnoth: Irrationale

[Sauron]

No, there is no rule that says every feature must be given a chance. However by implementing the feature you've made a big step in the right direction.

I do not consider feature request a feature. 'Do it for me' was never my approach (the thing is I find implementing more fun than bugging).

But in regards to maintainance hearing "I do not have 3 free days every time new version is issued." and considering that that was updating from 6 or 7 versions ago not 1... sounds like you want us to maintain a feature we don't really care about. Which is quite different from all the other features you mentioned.

I am well aware the mod/patch/branch cannot depend on single person. I might be gone for health/death/family/work reasons and there must be a few programmers able to replace me. That is what I am working on currently. To gather those who are interested in help or taking over and work for a while on the mod/patch/branch polishing it. To assure things will roll even if I am gone (which hopefully is not yet).

Now were you a developer and there would be some confidence that you would remain with the project (Which there likely would since you seem to come back to wesnoth now and again.) things would look quite a bit different.

I hope the above was the answer.

[5dPZ]

If we do, that'll immediately fragment our multiplayer server based on different people using different luck options

It sounds to me that you have just admitted that there will be some population that would prefer trying out the less-luck mod - i mean, how can there be "fragmentation" if really that no one cares about this mod?

But I think such fragmentation isn't much a problem, since the people who will play with this mod are those who would have quitted Wesnoth due to lack of less-luck mod anyway.

We can imagine two possibilitiy in terms of post-implementation:

First, majority will play current fully-random mode, a small number will play on less-luck. As mentioned above, this won't hurt our current community as those who play on less-luck would have quitted the game anyway without the mod.

Second, the unlikely one, would be equal or more players will play on less-luck mod. But again, I don't see anything wrong here, isn't this just prove that people LIKE the mod? proved that introducing the mod is a good decision?...

[Caphriel]

I don't think Dave, or anyone else, ever claimed that nobody was interested in trying it. The existence of this thread proves that there are at least some people who are interested. The problem, I think, would be that everyone who played non-default would have their preferred determinism settings, of which there are a great many possibilities. So, if it caught on, then the number of different game-types would skyrocket. You'd have people who liked it fully deterministic, people who liked it fully random, people who liked it balanced, people who wanted a little randomness, people who wanted a little determinism, and they'd all be hosting games with different settings and not playing with each other any more. And, I'm sure, coming to the forum to argue why their preferred settings are superior. Finding a game you wanted to play on the multiplayer server would become quite difficult; moreso than it already is.

[Noy]

@Noy - read the post right above yours. Mabye there you'll find the answer why mods don't get much attention. Care to recall the poll's outcome? I happen to remember. Percentage was not that in favor of current system. And I finally gave up the mode due to RL, not poll's outcome ... that is also hard - or inconvenient to remember. One click to remember, one click to forget ... http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... l&start=15

Please read what I said carefully. First off the percentages were not in favour of your system either. The largest volume was against your option wholeheartedly at 45%, with the wording of your next option (at 39%) was "Although I like Wesnoth as it is I find such a mod a valuable add-on and would definitely give it a try." Thats a completely ambiguous statement that actually SAYS that people are in support of the current system but wouldn't mind trying it. Several people explicitly said that including Glowing Fish, Gus Appelied Irreverant Kalis. Some even voted for the second option because they think that others will like it, not themselves.In total less than 19 people actually came out and said they thought randomness was bad. Thats hardly a convincing level of support. You're playing fast and loose with facts here to support your argument.

Second you also said something else in that poll thread about why you didn't want to continue the mod.

Options Are Bad. That is our philosophy. We only use options that have proven to be fun and useful. Fog of war has proven itself to be fun because almost everyone likes it in multiplayer, while in single player campaigns no fog is usually used. Clearly people like having it both ways.

I wonder if FOW was implemented multiple times by different persons willing to change the no-fog world into foggy-or-not one? Were there reoccurring request posts that lead FOW to FPI?

I think you are mistaken to give equivalence between Fog or War and timers (very common options in strategy games) and randomness. They are on completely different levels. Randomness is a core aspect of the game. It was designed with that rule right from the start and is as much a part of the game as a hex based map and units. Take Chess for example; you can play it with a timer or not; however you wouldn't ever add randomness to the game because it wasn't designed for it. The same was with Wesnoth. While it is easier to make such an adaptation, we consider it a core part of the game which should not be changed.

This is why you are being encouraged to make a fork.

If we do, that'll immediately fragment our multiplayer server based on different people using different luck options

It sounds to me that you have just admitted that there will be some population that would prefer trying out the less-luck mod - i mean, how can there be "fragmentation" if really that no one cares about this mod?

But I think such fragmentation isn't much a problem, since the people who will play with this mod are those who would have quitted Wesnoth due to lack of less-luck mod anyway.

Or you'll have a lot of new people who don't understand the difference between the two and won't learn. As I said above and before, the core skill in this game is probabilities management. Right now most people are forced to learn how to play the game properly. Altering that system will leave alot of people who are new to the game and don't know better utterly clueless.

This contravenes the "OAB rule" and will hurt our community in the long run. Take yourself as an example. Had we of included a less luck mod, would you of actually learned how to play the game as it is and learned to like the challenge it presents? Given everything you've said to me in the past, I think you'd agree that you probably wouldn't.

[Sauron]

@Noy: I am not going to discuss anything you write, so waste no time. Consider why your post tells more about you than about me.
@Those who read Noy's posts - please check the sources and base your own opinion on that.

[5dPZ]

Take yourself as an example. Had we of included a less luck mod, would you of actually learned how to play the game as it is and learned to like the challenge it presents? Given everything you've said to me in the past, I think you'd agree that you probably wouldn't.

I really hoped such less-luck mod was there when my friends decided to leave the game. As a fact that I am the only guy in my real life group still playing, I am just trying to prevent similar things happening again.

Also, I don't see why new players SHOULD learn the total-random mode, if they love the less-luck wesnoth, why should we worry? I think such mode would increase our player base rather than confuse them. Understanding luck mode and adopt its play isn't too difficult than, say adjust game play from 70% exp to 30% exp, IMO.

[tsr]

About the fragmentation of the player base:

Since the new lobby will allow several rooms I can see (all other things apart - like who is going to maintain the code if this fork is merged with trunk) the possibility of having rooms for a few basic settings like: default (0% deterministic), 25% deterministic, 50% deterministic, 75% deterministic and 100% deterministic.

Anyway I don´t really think the problem is with the fragmentation of the player base I really think that the problem is with maintaining of the code and more importantly balancing of factions for all possible settings. As I hope we all know weapon specials (apparent ones: slow and poison) are prone to imbalance if they are sure to hit. IMHO that is a far bigger problem that atm is unsolvable (unless we - in a really broad sense - start forks of the default era that are adapted to the engine-fork).

/tsr

[Sauron]

I really think that the problem is with maintaining of the code and more importantly balancing of factions for all possible settings. As I hope we all know weapon specials (apparent ones: slow and poison) are prone to imbalance if they are sure to hit. IMHO that is a far bigger problem that atm is unsolvable.

The problem was solved in 2006 in my 1st C++ mod. The solution is used also in the new mod.

Referring to balancement - hard to say if at 30%XP, 5gpw and 800 starting gold the factions are still balanced. I also see no need for rooms.

[Iris]

As I have already told you on IRC, this thread is not useful for you, the mainline developers, or the users. It is just a nifty time sink for us all.

What people should remember is that Wesnoth was originally made without targetting any user base in particular. It gained a large user base of its own; okay, that's fine, and unexpected. It also gained a broader set of programmers, UMC developers, artists and musicians that helps better serve that same user base. However, it is not our intention today to invest time in converting Wesnoth into a one-size-fits-all kind of game to "import" people from other audiences, because it is not, and has never been, our purpose to appeal to all kind of audiences.

If you show this game to somebody and they don't like it because of the so-feared "randomness", you won't become less popular or more strange (unless you hang around with the wrong kind of people, of course). You should just accept that it's a life fact that everyone has their own preferences.

If you don't like the game's randomness, then you can play another game. It's not like we have ever put Wesnoth in your face and forced you to play it.

If you don't like the game's randomness, you could also use Sauron's mod (which IMHO could be better maintained as a separate fork with a different name). We won't stop you or look weird at you.

Sauron, you are free to maintain your own mod. We won't stop you or look weird at you either. Some of us think it's a cool idea, some of us don't think so, and the rest just doesn't care. But please, do not taint your work with threads and posts inciting flamewars. :-) And if you feel the need to argue with anyone, do so by PM. And never forget the Posting Guidelines. And most importantly, don't assume anything of this is personal. Just carry on and continue working on your stuff as most UMC developers have done in the past. And don't rely on any community's approval or need for anything you develop, or you may encounter nasty surprises and forfeit some interesting oportunities.

Locked.