Generic Orc portraits

[Skizzaltix]

I think his ear is a little too far forward, but other than that, nice job... I like that eye

[Simons Mith]

Is anyone else here familiar with the Ork design used in the Earthdawn RPG? Maybe they'd be a good model to look at. NB I can't find any good online ork pictures - the few I have found aren't really representative.

[Skizzaltix]

Possibly... The clothing certainly makes sense for 'Noth orcs.
But I believe that it has been established several times that we want no lip-protruding fangs here, so better to lose that bit

[Captain Swing]

Spaceinvader suggested I drop this sketch in here as it's orcy. After reading the thread though I see the the orcish peoples of Wesnoth are pretty much like the manish people of Wesnoth except for a certain beastly flare and some social psychological disorders. Having read the ingame description I thought different, so excuse my first attempt here:



Now I am personally for more beastly orcs, but it looks like I am late to this party, and at this time am not going to argue it against folks who've put a lot of time and energy in and proven their commitment.

I would suggest a couple little things - mostly because to my hypersensitive eye there's some elements in the current plan that might be taken as ethnic stereotyping, which one obviously wants to avoid any appearance of in creating a race of brutish almost men for one's largely European looking humans, and pretty nordic elves to slaughter. Maybe it's just me but I'd love not to see the flat large noses and fuller lips that some of these orc drawings have. I know none of it is intentional, that these feature are precisely those that are deemed 'brutish' in most Western societies (the original orc portraits have this feeling of being Japanese Oni, which is kind of nice) but the fact remains it could give a negative impression. I understand the Tolkien estate is still fielding concerns that his orcs are some kind of coded racism (Even I'm willing to go as far as they might represent Germans - but that's hardly what were discussing.) Anyway my own attempt (which is full of flaws itself) is below and I've tried not to give Mr. Orc a racialized look.



Now first off - his hands are a bit too small, especially the foreground one, he needs hair and some armor I'd think
I do want to not that I like the idea of orcs being fond of tattooing and other body manipulations like nose and earrings.
I gave him a vaguely Japanese helmet tucked under the arm, and generally would continue that sort of armor design (though cruder looking then the real stuff) made of metal plates, bone, fur and leather. Very little in the way of markings save for geometric clan/unit designators - similar to the tattoos I'd think.

Also, what do people think of goblins not only being smaller, but far more dog like - up to perhaps a snout and peaked ears on top the head? Sorta like badly armed little pugs.

-Swing

I can't believe how much doodling I've done re: Wesnoth today - though I have the excuse of having a bad cold & a day off and it's nice anatomical practice!

[kitty]

thank you for the valuable feedback that you get a racist impression from the sketches up to know!
i had hoped by giving them heavy features but light skin we could avoid that. but if that was your first impression we will certainly take it into consideration!


i'm not really a fan of the anthro route you seem to start here. i would like the orcs to look carnivore without being directly modeled after an easily recongnizable animal.

but for the question if you are to late to the party to define the look: all you see in this thread are only sketches, none of them has been commited to mainline. if you suddenly do a orc (in a decent quality and style) that fits the sprite etc. he will get in regardless of this discussion. see it rather as a brainstorming/inspiration thing.

your latest sketch looks too weak for me and you won't get away with a bare chested guy, you'll have to follow the sprite a lot closer:


but your sketches look really promising and you could make a nice addition to the team in future

[Captain Swing]

I'm not really a fan of the anthro route you seem to start here. i would like the orcs to look carnivore without being directly modeled after an easily recognizable animal.

Okay I'm a bit confused - the first sketch with the three heads is very anthro understandably this is not Wesnoth's feel. Beastmen - orcs aren't. The second sketch has only a couple beasty features a)slightly hunched form and longer gut than a human (hence the beefcake pose - most of my sketches will start out sort of naked I find it easier to add clothes after the anatomy is rightish and it helps make sure the material for the armor doesn't end up as steel spandex...) b) ears, not even exceptionally beastly, certainly not anime anthro-style, are they going too far? c) a bit of a muzzle - the sort of apish lipless one of a chimp I guess, but I don't think it's especially chimpy, it's smaller and he lacks the wizened monkey face and nose to go with it.

Please help me determine how these traits seem 'too anthro'? Otherwise we simply get shaggy barbarian men. I do rather enjoy the Oni look of the old portraits, and given that this is borrowing from an existing mythology, one could use a red (red, not native American) skin tone with fewer racial implications - it would match the sprites better, and give a more beastly appearance.

but for the question if you are to late to the party to define the look: all you see in this thread are only sketches, none of them has been committed to mainline. if you suddenly do a orc (in a decent quality and style) that fits the sprite etc. he will get in regardless of this discussion. see it rather as a brainstorming/inspiration thing.

your latest sketch looks too weak for me and you won't get away with a bare chested guy, you'll have to follow the sprite a lot closer:

Here, I played dress up with the fellow. Does the armor here follow the sprite close enough - I am partial to the corded laminates of the red orc, as opposed to the blue orc's studded leather, fur and coat of plates, and while it's lacking shoulder armor everything else is there. How close are we following the sprites?

'too weak' as in quality of sketch, or lack or burliness? I don't want this grunt to look like Conan...plus he's meaner with eyebrows and armor.

but your sketches look really promising and you could make a nice addition to the team in future

Thanks! I hope to add something.

...Swing

[beetlenaut]

Girgistand and thespaceinvader did half a dozen orc warrior/warlord pictures and an assassin for SotBE. Shouldn't any generic portraits be pretty close to those? In fact, shouldn't we use those as our generic portraits until we get some dedicated ones? It kind of seems a shame to have really good orc portraits visible in only one campaign, while all other campaigns use old, inferior ones.

[thespaceinvader]

IN general, we won't use campaign images as generics, even if they are better than the current generics. Mostly because they're not generic.

Not to mention the fact that our image of the generic orc has developed a little since then. One of these days (i think i'm moving towards it being my next major project at this point) i'm planning to work with him to come up with generic orcs for mainline.

[Sleepwalker]

I couldn't help but to fiddle a bit with girgistians latest portrait (Found at Portrait sketches). I hope you don't mind girgistian, I just wanted to try to draw a face similar to James Woos orcs, which I like... (so blame me for being uncreative)

I dunno, if its too human looking or you don't like it I don't care. If you like it and want to use it that's swell.

[thespaceinvader]

Looks pretty good =)

The only slight issue is that the head and face seem to be looking in slightly different directions - we see a little too much of the far side of the face for the angle it's at. And we definitely shouldn't be able to see any of the far ear, since the angle it's at would have it entirely obscured by the face.

[Girgistian]

Nice. I think the L2 orc could have a face like this, if the grunt's going to have the one in the current sketch. The mouth does seem somewhat big though, but I'm not sure if that's too much of a problem.

And I'm okay with you drawing on my sketches, all of the stuff I've gotten into the game so far has been finalized by either Jetryl of thespaceinvader

[Petrified Elf]

As a connoisseur of the patron creator of orcs, J. R. R.Tolkien(He inspired all fantasy games made after his books including BfW), I find that many of the orc portraits, while better and than mine may ever be, do not truly capture the original Idea of an one. I do know that this is a portrait of a BfW orc not necessarily a Tolkien one.

I feel compelled to quote from a Tolkien bestiary, and give an original Idea of what orcs are.

" ...Their stunted form was hideous: bent, bow-legged and squat. their arms were long and strong as the apes of the south and their skin was black as wood that has been charred by flame the jagged fangs in their wide mouth were yellow, their tongues red and thick, and their nostrils and their faces were broad and flat their eyes were crimson gashes, like narrow slits which behind hot coals burn..."
-A Tolkien Beastiary by David Day

I believe that Capitan Swing's bottom middle orc head is most accurate and his drawing of an orc body the same.

P.S. This is not spam and I am sorry if I was mean I feel very strongly about orcs...

[thespaceinvader]

Much as tolkien invented them, and ours are heavily inspired by them, our orcs are NOT tolkien's. That would be, to be quite frank, illegal.

We want to develop our own take on the orcs. This is pretty much it.

[Turuk]

P.S. This is not spam and I am sorry if I was mean I feel very strongly about orcs...

Which is wonderful for you, but I can see that you have not taken the time to fully grasp what it is that you read in this thread. You mention that you know this is a BfW orc but still feel compelled to point out what you think the orc should look like since it is not done in the Tolkien fashion. Tolkien was a brilliant man, and he did provide the inspiration for numerous fantasy books, movies, games, whatever, but he is not the be-all end-all of fantasy. Claiming that he has inspired all fantasy games after his books is a big stretch.

I would not worry about being mean because you will find that your opinion on what the orcs should be changed to in order to match your vision of them will have little impact.

Edit: And tada, TSI posted right before me to prove it is so.

[Petrified Elf]

@Turuk, If Tolkien did never existed, would Wesnothonian Orcs? Not everything fantasy belongs to him but he and other fantasy writers surely sparked our imaginations with fey creatures and goblins much more than without.

To all who read my previous post: regard it useless.