Imperial Multiplayer Era - version 0.17 released

[Temuchin Khan]

My idea when making the Kedari stats was to just get some stats out there, knowing that they might well need to be modified. Feel free to do whatever is necessary.

In fact, if we want the Kedari to be 1.1.1 compatible, we might need to change the Camel Rider -> Cameleer -> Camel Warrior line so that instead of Hills it is most effective in Dunes.

EDIT: If people want to split the Kedari into two factions, as was suggested, there would be several possibilities. Here's one:

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Camel Rider -> Cameleer -> Camel Warrior

Salik -> Dervish -> Murshid

Ragel {lvl 0} -> Hashishan -> Nizari Ismaili -> Imam of Alamut
              -> Eunuch Attendant -> Eunuch Guardian -> Eunuch Warder

and:

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Desert Raider -> Spahi -> Ghazi
              -> Sheik -> Sultan

Ifrit -> Genie -> Djinn

Light Footman -> Desert Footman -> Elite Desert Footman

EDIT: Added a new level 1 eunuch.

EDIT: If the Kedari were split, I would suggest making the Ragel neutral, and perhaps making Salik -> Dervish -> Murshid line neutral as well.

Also, we would need a name for the other, more imperialistic, faction. The faction with the Camel Rider could keep the name Kedari. As for the other, here are some ideas:

1) Quraysh {ruling clan of Mecca which fought Muhammad}

2) Mujahedin {general name for Islamic holy warriors}

3) Mamelukes {mostly Turkish slave-soldiers used in Medieval Muslim armies}

4) Turcopoles {type of mercenary hired by both Muslims and Christians during the Crusades}

5) Yenicheri (original Turkish form of "Jannissery", the Ottoman Empire's elite troops)

[Cuyo Quiz]

2) Mujahedin {general name for Islamic holy warriors}

My vote is casted on this one. Specially since Jannissery has a fair chance of being used as a unit's name.

Also i would suggest a more consisitent distribution among the tribemen and imperialistic concepts.

For one side, we would have the Ragel lines (that is, Eunuch and Hashisan being recruitable), Desert Raider, Salik and Footmen, maybe with the idea of a Jannisary unit.

On the other we would have the Camel Rider, Ifrit, Ragel (tribemen shoudl have lvl0 i think), and some sort of not so religious healer, maybe with the addition of the Magi idea.

This basically makes one faction be ability-rich, and the other damage-type-rich, which should give fairly different playstyles.

After that some extra additions/balancing can be amde

[Temuchin Khan]

For one side, we would have the Ragel lines (that is, Eunuch and Hashisan being recruitable), Desert Raider, Salik and Footmen, maybe with the idea of a Jannisary unit.

On the other we would have the Camel Rider, Ifrit, Ragel (tribemen shoudl have lvl0 i think), and some sort of not so religious healer, maybe with the addition of the Magi idea.

But then we would need completely new upgrades for the Ragel!

How about this:

Ragel {lvl 0} -> Bedouin -> Bedouin Raider

Besides, this would leave the Kedari with no branching lines and the Mujahedin with only one.

EDIT: As for the new healer, I'm not sure the Magauuan (= Magi) would be a good idea, as that was intended for the yet-to-be completed Airiya, and I don't think a "not so religious" healer would (a) fit the faction or (b) be a Magi.

Still, we could compromise:

Holy Lawyer -> Faqih -> Alim -- heals; has slow attack

[Chris Byler]

I don't think we should use a specifically historic name, or a name from any other specific fictional work. In both cases it will draw inappropriate criticism for not properly matching the source. Wesnoth factions are fictional entities that may be inspired by a particular historic or other-fictional source, but the majority of their stats, abilities and interactions are guided by the need to be an interesting and balanced faction in the game. Inventing new names makes this slightly less likely to be misunderstood. In particular, since the imperial side will be a somewhat corrupt empire that hires assassins when they suit its purposes, I don't want to accidentally name them after someone's real ancestors.

Accordingly I invented the name Mazurids for them, combining a few phonemes from different tribe names.

I haven't figured out the actual stats yet, but what I am looking at right now is:
Kedari: The desert nomad faction. Lacking cities, they don't really have the ability to make and maintain armor, so they emphasize mobility and aggression. Lawful.

Camel line - will gain branches, possibly a ranged attacker, possibly a skirmisher. Because this will be the mainstay of the Kedari, I'm thinking about dropping "Camel" from the unit names and just mentioning it in the description (a Kedari is practically born on camel-back) and the graphics. We don't call them "Horse Knights", after all.

Ifrit line - will lose teleport, teleport+fly is redundant and makes them hard to balance; probably become even more expensive, they should be rare but scary. I'll probably make them weak to cold because holy is too rare to be their only weakness; possibly reduce their physical resists to 40, extreme resistances are bad. Will become lawful (a creature of heat should thrive under the sun). May make them a bit slower - so they have a move advantage in difficult terrain, but can't outrun most units in the open (use camels for that). But the general idea of a flying mage-ghost will stay if at all possible.

Salik line - probably change the L2 to lead+heal, lead+cure at L3; attacks will stay weak, but not quite as weak as presently.

I may try them without any infantry for a while to see if it can be made viable. It would definitely give them a unique style if it worked (note that their healer/leader is on foot, so the entire army can't go zooming around at 7 or 8 - at least not if they want the benefit of those abilities).

Mazurid: They will be a faction with no supernatural abilities - no healing, no illumination, no mages. I think this can be done without being either weak or boring to play. Most of their units are more defensive in orientation than the Kedari, but the Hashashin is a notable exception. Mostly neutral with the H. line chaotic.

Light Footman line - renamed Janissary and given the appropriate armament (still researching this, but it seems to point to a versatile unit with decent melee and range). Will be given a new range-specializing branch to replace the Eunuchs.

Eunuchs - are now their own line (this makes better sense since castration was historically usually performed before puberty.) Eunuchs tended to be large (a hormone thing, I think) - eunuchs trained for fighting will be large the way sumo wrestlers are large. They'll lose the firepots and be a tough melee specialist, without the armor of Heavy Inf., but retaining average mobility and defense. They'll use a big weapon with low strike count.

Desert Raider - renamed Mamluk, will probably keep the forked upgrade, but the Sheik fork (may be renamed something like Bey) will now be leaders. Mounted leaders are very useful and will help compensate for the faction's lack of magical powers (of course they will have less HP and damage than most leaders on foot, as well as piercing weakness...) The Mazurids won't specialize in their cavalry as strongly as the Kedari, but it will still be pretty good.

Hashashin line - drops the Ragel (humanoid races generally shouldn't have L0s) and is recruitable from L1, otherwise, mainly stat tweaks. Their ranged damage will remain weak (except for the poison), focusing more on backstab at higher levels. Research reveals that the Naziri sect still exists today (and doesn't assassinate people), so some renaming may be required (looking at Fidai as L1 name).


Does anyone have comments or objections to the above concepts, before I do detailed stats?

[Temuchin Khan]

Does anyone have comments or objections to the above concepts, before I do detailed stats?

I think you've got some good ideas there. I, too, was thinking of renaming the Camel Rider. So far, though, "Dunesman" is the only thing I can think of.

Also, I had originally intended the sheik -> sultan branch to have leadership, so I'd be all for that idea.

As for renaming the Nizari Ismaili, that's probably a good idea, although I'm not sure that "Fidai" works.

[Noyga]

Well i think "Camel Rider" is better than "Dunesman", because it pretty well gives you the picture of what is the unit while "Dunesman" is not very helpful for that. It's more KISS

[turin]

I don't have a problem with splitting the faction, but I REALLY don't want to have to do more art for them anytime soon. I think instead of splitting them, I would prefer to just cut a few of the units. (The graphics can always be used later.)

[Cuyo Quiz]

The Kedari would need some sort of infantry with ambush(desert) i think, maybe with a branch that has a ranged attack. Low exp requirement. We could use the Ragel image here.

The Camel line should be cheaper than most cavalry, to balance with a somewhat weak infantry. I also like the idea of him having a ranged attack. I still like the name Cameleer though, as it seems the obvious choice of words for someone that goes around in a camel.

Eunuchs need no image change, they already carry a big axe, and at much some image editing would be done to the png if we wanted it bigger/fatter.

I recommend keeping the branch on the Desert Raider, to keep the faction interesting. In addition to the footman branch, it should be enough.

Should this be taken to the appropiate thread now?.

[turin]

Just so everyone knows, I am (fairly) certain that ambush(desert) is now possible! Only post-1.1.1, of course, but I will add it to the desert footman line ASAP.

[Temuchin Khan]

Just so everyone knows, I am (fairly) certain that ambush(desert) is now possible! :D Only post-1.1.1, of course, but I will add it to the desert footman line ASAP.

Nice! However, the Kedari still seem to have some bugs, at least in Imperial Champions. The Hashishan is invisible and the most of the units cannot level up without triggering an error.

Even if we fixed these bugs in the regular Imperial Era (did we?), I see them still cropping up in Imperial Champions, with both 1.0.2 and 1.1 (I don't have 1.1.1 yet, as I suppose is true of most).

[turin]

I'll look into it. It's possible they'll be fixed in 0.8.

[turin]

VERSION 0.8.0 OF THE IMPERIAL ERA IS RELEASED.

But only for 1.1+ (sorry those not used to the bleeding edge. )

The main changes are, new unit Lavinian Bowman and upgrades, balancing changes according to previous suggestions, and new faction the Arendians (although you can't play them yet, as I don't view them as stable - if you want to try them out, go into Imperial_Era/Imperial_Era.cfg and uncomment their [multiplayer_side].)

If someone else wants to create a 1.0 - compatible version and send it to me to upload, that'd be great. But I updated the era for 1.1+, and so it isn't compatible with 1.0.

[turin]

About the Kedari:

As I see it, the main contradictions are, Eunuch comes from Footman (makes no sense, since Eunuchs are Eunuchs from young age), and, the faction has both Salik (islam-related) and Ifrit (related to pre-islam polytheistic beliefs, IIRC).

So, what would people think of this revised tree for the kedari?:

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Desert Raider -> Spahi -> Ghazi
               -> Sheik -> Sultan

Camel Rider -> Cameleer -> Camel Warrior

Light Footman -> Desert Footman -> Elite Desert Footman

Ragel -> Hashishan -> Nizari -> Imam
      -> Eunuch Guardian -> Eunuch Warder

ifrit -> Genie -> Djinn

Basically, I'm completely cut the Salik line. It could fit in another faction, but I don't think it really fits with the Kedari. Either the Salik or Ifrit line has to go, IMHO; I think it should be the Salik one.

[appleide]

"Spahi" not found when unit Desert Raider leveled up... Just to report a bug that may or may not have been reported already...

[Temuchin Khan]

the faction has both Salik (islam-related) and Ifrit (related to pre-islam polytheistic beliefs, IIRC).

Well, we're using "Ifrit", rightly or wrongly, as name for a level 1 Djinn. Now, Djinni are mentioned in the Qur'an and are just as much Islam-related as the Salik. We could change the names of the Djinn unit line:

Djinn -> Djinn al-Fitnah -> Djinn al-Harb

So, what would people think of this revised tree for the kedari?:

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Desert Raider -> Spahi -> Ghazi
               -> Sheik -> Sultan

Camel Rider -> Cameleer -> Camel Warrior

Light Footman -> Desert Footman -> Elite Desert Footman

Ragel -> Hashishan -> Nizari -> Imam
      -> Eunuch Guardian -> Eunuch Warder

ifrit -> Genie -> Djinn

Basically, I'm completely cut the Salik line. It could fit in another faction, but I don't think it really fits with the Kedari. Either the Salik or Ifrit line has to go, IMHO; I think it should be the Salik one.

Personally, I think the Salik line would be a better fit than the Ifrit line, especially since one of the issues raised was the complaint that we had two units with fire attacks.

Besides, a line of holy men has been part of the plan for this faction all along, whereas the Djinn line was added later -- still at an early stage, but nonetheless later.

Besides, I wrote the unit descriptions with an eye toward the religiousness of the Kedari, and so for that reason too it would seem to make more sense to keep the Salik->Dervish->Murshid line than the Ifrit->Genie->Djinn line.

Besides, I'm not opposed to splitting the faction, as I said earlier.