Free Goblins (Dev Stage: Statting, Coding-then Animating)

[zookeeper]

To me it sounds like it's most likely ok. You could just post the images you based your ones on to remove all doubt, of course.

[mr_svperstar]

Here's my inspiration!

If you guys think mine are too close to the originals I'll have to go back to the drawing board!

http://www.3kingdoms.net/armaments/offensivearm.htm

http://www.terrainosaur.com/tower1.jpg

How much does searching for images on the internet suck! Would have been quicker and easier to draw them!

[zookeeper]

Here's my inspiration!

If you guys think mine are too close to the originals I'll have to go back to the drawing board!

http://www.3kingdoms.net/armaments/offensivearm.htm

http://www.terrainosaur.com/tower1.jpg

How much does searching for images on the internet suck! Would have been quicker and easier to draw them!

Don't worry, you're safe. There's a resemblance of course, but your images and your inspirations are obviously completely different images.

[turin]

The difference is between, on the one hand, using reference pictures to find out what the thing you're trying to draw looks like, and on the other, tracing or copying said reference pictures.

[irrevenant]

That's great - using references like that is just fine. I'm sorry I had to check - we've had cases of art fraud in the forums before. Turns out you're just scarily skilled.

The Defence tower, it looks more impeccable than I would envision Free Goblin handiwork. Like the siege tower it's something they put together on the battlefield. It would be fairly similar to the siege tower, only more resilient. I hadn't realised there was an orcish watchtower already - that sort of design would be quite good but it should be made of wood rather than stone and not look quite so polished.

With the siege tower, is it possible to make it look like it's made predominantly of logs rather than beams?

[EDIT] A bit of a change to the faction tree (I'll update the graphical tree when I get home):

* There's a new Goblin Spearflinger line (there was always supposed to be, but it fell by the wayside somewhere). The L1 will be armed with a pilum which will bend on impact slowing the enemy.

* There's also a new Shieldgoblin line which essentially consists of a Goblin with a honking big shield. The L0 is almost entirely defensive and may extend a +5% defensive bonus to adjacent units on the same team. I realise this is a contentious idea and it may be pulled depending on how it playtests. I do like the idea of the Goblins giving each other little bonuses though, as it shows how they work together to make up for being so weak.

[EDIT2] Shieldgoblin + the world's simplest defence animation.

[EDIT3] New Forester. Not as good as the last one, but looks more L0.

[jgp93]

looks really cool.

I'm new to wesnoth, but really like it. During a boring train ride I drew up 6-7 usable of factions, and a goblin-only faction was one. Because I didn't want to read all fifteen pages of post has anyone thought of making it into a multiplayer faction?

[Weeksy]

Factions by definition are multiplayer, with possibility for campaigning.

[Qes]

I feel i've neglected this poor thread - and I want to apologize.

I've been so caught up in my own disaster's I've not helped more.

I promise to give it a more thorough look once ive rested some.
-Qes

[FireMaster]

Irrerevent and I might be joining our factions up into an era (default+Swamp Elves+Free Goblins)

Have a look at the agreement here

[mr_svperstar]

Hey guys!

I got an updated tower, basically Ive just done a little more shading and I looked at the suggestion of changing to logs instead of planks of wood. It sounded good but putting a spherical textured surface into a space 2-4 pixels wide is beyond me. So its ended up a darker and more rustic looking wood.

Then I added a defend frame, the little goblin is ducking and putting his hands over his eyes!

[mr_svperstar]

This might be a silly question at this stage given the idea is over 1 year old and there has been endless discussion on everything from genetics to materials science, not to mention all the graphics... but what's happening with the coding?

I think it's time some of these units had their details put down on paper. Attacks, HP, traits, etc. Obviously it would only be an initial estimate as things would have to be fine tuned in the testing stage. But I think we should put some thought into it, write some stuff down, and when it looks like a good start, then copy it to the first post under the unit tree so everyone can see exacly what is going on right from the first page of the faction.

I did a little coding when I was looking at making my own faction before I came to this forum and saw that basically everything anyone could possibly think of had already been thought up. But I'm not sure what is actually possible which is why I wanna open it up to debate.

Firstly, I like the "orcish" trait idea, with orcs and goblins actually being the same creature, it makes sense that some would be bigger and stronger than others, even after a sharing/caring society where the runts of the litter are given every opportunity to grow. Also given the runts are allowed greater opportunies it would also make sense that the free goblins would be stronger than the goblins of an orcish society, as others have already suggested.

It seems to me that given the low level and low strength nature of the goblins, combined with the whole idea of "free" goblins, the average goblin should be free for upkeep purposes. Essentially a loyal trait would be implied. This would be countered by the goblins with an orcish trait, as being bigger and stronger they could want to take over the goblin society and would need added upkeep to keep them inline.

Just to get things rolling I'll make a few comments on my Balloonist idea, and everone can tell me how stupid I am

1) Skirmisher/No ZoC given it's in the sky far away from the enemy.*
2) No melee attack, and immune to melee attacks for the same reason.*
3) Same defence for all terrain. (around 50%)*
4) Movement costs - 1 for all terrain (except cave which would be 99 since it can't fly in a hole)
5) -50% resistance to pierce/magic attacks, 0 for others.

* Ignore these points if it is too hard, then just make him land on the ground between each move. I do like the idea of him being shot out of the sky rather than being stabbed while sitting on the ground. It would make for a much more spectacular death, and also adds a little uniqueness to the unit.

L1 - Balloonist
HP - 18
Moves - 7
Spear (ranged) 4-2 (peirce)
Rock (ranged) 3-3 (impact)

L2 - Pro Balloonist
HP - 26
Moves - 10 (great improvement on L1 due to experience in understanding wind currents)
Spear (ranged) 4-3 (peirce)
Flaming Spear (ranged) 6-2 (fire)
Rock (ranged) 3-4 (impact)

So there's a little bit of a start.

Here's a slightly modified version, tried to do some shading but it's a lot harder with unit colours compared to a neutral colour, since you can't use smudge. That is the best button ever for non-team colours. It can make anything look good!

[irrevenant]

has anyone thought of making it into a multiplayer faction?

Yeh, that's the plan. My first thought was a single-player campaign, but I decided to make the MP era and play-balance it first, then create the campaign.

I feel i've neglected this poor thread - and I want to apologize.

There is no need to apologise. The amount you've contributed to the forums in your brief time here is nothing short of amazing. Any help you can give is greatly appreciated but it's certainly not required of you. Anything you can add is a bonus.

Irrevenant and I might be joining our factions up into an era (default+Swamp Elves+Free Goblins)
Have a look at the agreement here

It wasn't so much an agreement as a suggestion. An era of Default + Swamp Elves + Free Goblins seems like it would make sense, but there's a lot more work to be done on this faction before it's ready for that.

I got an updated tower [...]
Then I added a defend frame, the little goblin is ducking and putting his hands over his eyes!

Cool! I wouldn't bother with defence frames at this point though - the final sprite probably won't just have a ponderer sitting on it, and until the base frame's sorted out, doing elaborations on it will probably be a waste of time. (Of course, if you're doing it for the fun of it, go nuts. ).

This might be a silly question at this stage given the idea is over 1 year old and there has been endless discussion on everything from genetics to materials science, not to mention all the graphics... but what's happening with the coding?

I just started it. As you can see from the thread, I'm having a few problems, but I'll get there.

I think it's time some of these units had their details put down on paper. Attacks, HP, traits, etc. Obviously it would only be an initial estimate as things would have to be fine tuned in the testing stage. But I think we should put some thought into it, write some stuff down, and when it looks like a good start, then copy it to the first post under the unit tree so everyone can see exactly what is going on right from the first page of the faction.

I'd planned to stat out the units as I implemented (which I've started, albeit poorly), but if you'd rather do it on paper first, I'm fine with that.

Firstly, I like the "orcish" trait idea, with orcs and goblins actually being the same creature, it makes sense that some would be bigger and stronger than others, even after a sharing/caring society where the runts of the litter are given every opportunity to grow.

I actually don't like the orcish trait idea. Strong and Resilient already cover Goblins who are unusually good physically.

Also given the runts are allowed greater opportunies it would also make sense that the free goblins would be stronger than the goblins of an orcish society, as others have already suggested.

I do like the idea of Free-Goblin-specific traits for the reasons given. Maybe something communal - a +1 to damage for all adjacent (allied) Free Goblin units, perhaps?

It seems to me that given the low level and low strength nature of the goblins, combined with the whole idea of "free" goblins, the average goblin should be free for upkeep purposes.

"Think free speech not free beer." But yeh, part of the faction concept is that the base level is 0 not 1, so a lot of the army would have no upkeep costs.

Just to get things rolling I'll make a few comments on my Balloonist idea, and everone can tell me how stupid I am
1) Skirmisher/No ZoC given it's in the sky far away from the enemy.*
2) No melee attack, and immune to melee attacks for the same reason.*
3) Same defence for all terrain. (around 50%)*
4) Movement costs - 1 for all terrain (except cave which would be 99 since it can't fly in a hole)
5) -50% resistance to pierce/magic attacks, 0 for others.

#1: Skirmisher makes a lot of sense. I'm of two minds about the "No ZoC" thing, but it would be an interesting variant.
#2: That's probably the best way to go. I wish they'd make "flying" an ability, then we could still have flying units engage in melee. Maybe we could do it with a manual exceptions list...
#3: I might even suggest 40% since balloons are a lot less manoeuvrable than Bats or Gryphons.
#4&5: Sounds good.

L1 - Balloonist
HP - 18
Moves - 7
Spear (ranged) 4-2 (pierce)
Rock (ranged) 3-3 (impact)

L2 - Pro Balloonist
HP - 26
Moves - 10 (great improvement on L1 due to experience in understanding wind currents)
Spear (ranged) 4-3 (peirce)
Flaming Spear (ranged) 6-2 (fire)
Rock (ranged) 3-4 (impact)

How about making the moves 9 & 12 respectively? This is a fragile unit, and I'm concerned it'll never survive to Level 2.

[EDIT] I've had a bit of a play with the unit tree. It was getting a bit L1-heavy when it's supposed to be an L0-based faction. The new unit tree can be found here. (Basically the Woundpatcher line starts L0 and separated out from the ponderer line plus there's a new spearer line).
I'm working on a template to simplify unit stats. When that's done, I'll start including individual units, too.

[mr_svperstar]

Cool! I wouldn't bother with defence frames at this point though - the final sprite probably won't just have a ponderer sitting on it, and until the base frame's sorted out, doing elaborations on it will probably be a waste of time. (Of course, if you're doing it for the fun of it, go nuts. ).

I was really just practising, structures make a lot more sense to me than people/animals. But really the defend frame only has hands, ears and a tiny bit of colour, so it could remain valid even after a new goblin is inserted.

I'd planned to stat out the units as I implemented (which I've started, albeit poorly), but if you'd rather do it on paper first, I'm fine with that.

By paper I mean this forum, then copy finalised stats to page 1 next to the unit tree.

Strong and Resilient already cover Goblins who are unusually good physically.

Good point! No need to over complicate things.

I do like the idea of Free-Goblin-specific traits for the reasons given. Maybe something communal - a +1 to damage for all adjacent (allied) Free Goblin units, perhaps?

Like leadership, but more an allies/teamwork trait?

#2: ...I wish they'd make "flying" an ability, then we could still have flying units engage in melee. Maybe we could do it with a manual exceptions list...

I'll have to learn some coding. A flying ability would be good, cos I inserted him into the loyalist faction (named him bowman to test what it looks like in the game) and the basket goes underwater when it should be hovering over the sea.

#3: I might even suggest 40%...

Probably makes sense, but you could be in danger of making the entire faction too weak, but that's a balancing issue for later.

How about making the moves 9 & 12 respectively? This is a fragile unit, and I'm concerned it'll never survive to Level 2.

Yeah it'll need to be able to outrun horses.

[irrevenant]

I'd planned to stat out the units as I implemented (which I've started, albeit poorly), but if you'd rather do it on paper first, I'm fine with that.

By paper I mean this forum, then copy finalised stats to page 1 next to the unit tree.

Yeh, that's what I meant too. But I've discovered a spot on the wiki for it now. I just have a little tweaking to do with the template and it'll be brilliant.

#2: ...I wish they'd make "flying" an ability, then we could still have flying units engage in melee. Maybe we could do it with a manual exceptions list...

I'll have to learn some coding. A flying ability would be good, cos I inserted him into the loyalist faction (named him bowman to test what it looks like in the game) and the basket goes underwater when it should be hovering over the sea.

There's apparently a WML flag called is_flying that should fix that.

[EDIT] + placeholder unit for use on wiki.

[EDIT2] + Ironstaff unit for use on wiki.

[EDIT3] + Revised Bladestaff unit for use on wiki.

[EDIT4] + Revised Stickmaster unit for use on wiki.

[EDIT5] + Revised Potioner.

[irrevenant]

Okay, I've started hacking together some stats.

You can find them here.

P.S. There's still a slight glitch in the template after the attack spacing, but I'll fix that later.

[EDIT] I fixed the glitch in the attack section. Now if only I could figure out how to make those extra CRs optional. Ah well, it's good enough for now - back to work on the actual faction...