Filling the unit tree

[jmosher]

I agree that Outriders are pretty fun, and I make use of one or two regularly. But I would not agree that they are exceptionally dangerous. They cost as much as Heroes, Marksmen, Druids, and Fire Mages to recall, so unless you are swimming in cash, in which case most any strategy is going to work, you are sacrificing a lot to recall a pack of outriders to pick off the occasional enemy mage or grunt.

My thought was to provide some ongoing interest while limiting the potential for imbalance. No outrider is going to rack up 200 XP very fast. Heck, make it 250. And if he does, that means you've sacrificed the advancment of White Mages, Heroes and Fire Mages to get there. At the end, you do have a terrifying unit, but no more than an Arch Mage, who can teleport around the battlefield and hurl giant fireballs!

Remember: 200 (250?) XP gets you no extra attacks, no extra damage, no extra HP. Just skirmishing. I agree it's powerful, but you'll only get there rarely unless you make it the focus of your strategy.

[miyo]

In CVS movement for 'Arch Mage' and 'Great Mage' has been dropped to 4, this limits a bit their teleporting around the battle-field.

- Miyo

[methinks]

I feel like having Outrider advancing
C'mon, he is riding on horseback, in fact no walking unit is really hoping to live after it meets horseback unit with sword, and sometimes three outriders may be not enough. It sucks. This unit is not too powerful. Also, I do not think that mages should have ponly 4 movement. Why? because they can teleport their legs became so weak they almost cannot move? Come on At least make 4th level mage move=5.

[Dave]

There'd be nothing wrong with an Outrider advancing, and I don't think it'd be overpowering to give them the skirmish ability. If there were to be such a unit, my preference would actually be a 'horse archer': a unit that can move in, shoot his bow, and then move away on the same turn.

However...I don't have a problem with the Outrider not advancing, either

C'mon, he is riding on horseback, in fact no walking unit is really hoping to live after it meets horseback unit with sword, and sometimes three outriders may be not enough.

Well, if you want a truly powerful unit with a sword, look no further than the Paladin. Outrider is an Elvish unit, and thus relies on swiftness and skill rather than brute force.

Also, I do not think that mages should have ponly 4 movement. Why?

Because a teleporting unit that can also move 5 spaces is too powerful.

David

[methinks]

What about a bit milder solution. You can only teleport if you have made 3 or less moves. After teleporting you cannot move. Otherwise, without teleporting you may move 5 hexes.

[miyo]

Only mages with teleport ability have movement reduced to 4... other mages have movement 5. Why do "teleporters" have reduced movement? They don't have to march as they can teleport so they are not so good in marching anymore.

- Miyo

[Dave]

What about a bit milder solution. You can only teleport if you have made 3 or less moves. After teleporting you cannot move. Otherwise, without teleporting you may move 5 hexes.

I'm not sure if that's a "milder" solution or not.

Anyhow, I have made an additional change to teleporting: you can only teleport between vacant villages. That means that if a fast unit captures a village one turn, you will have to wait until next turn, move the unit off the village, and then teleport the mage in.

I'm also making changes to the AI to make it target units that get anywhere near its leader.

If the Arch/Great Mage turns out to be lots less powerful with these changes, we may restore their movement to 5.

David

[miyo]

Of course it is less powerful... and same time more in balance with other units.

- Miyo

[Christophe33]

Of course it is less powerful... and same time more in balance with other units.

I completely agree that the teleportation capability of a mage should be limited because they are too powerfull otherwise. But their movement should be back to 5, otherwise they can barely move in rough terrain if there is no village around.
I love the outrider and also think it should have a thrid level, but I doubt skirmish will add a lot. The outrider can usually turn around enemy units, at least when he's not in the center of the fight. A bit more hit point and fighting capability would be welcome. The outrider I had since the first scenario and that I use in most scenario ended with 130 Xp. Of course I didn't try to get it to win experience but still had it in a lot of fight. 200 Xp should be far enough for a little gain.Look at Paladin, they are farmore powefull with their healing capability, holy attack, high hit point...

I think the human(loyalist) needs some more units to balance it. They mostly have infantry without any good cavalry nor distance attack. The human units are clearly more specialized than elves, with stronger attack in their main field.
They should have access to the horsemen who are human anyway.
A human thunderer would be a good addition, with a level two "musketeer" and a level three "musketeer commander".
Dwarf thunderer definitively needs a level 2 and maybe 3 to be of any interest.
What about a cannon unit...very slow and expansive but very powerfull distance attack.
Another interesting human unit will be a cheap irregular/skirmisher type using a sling.
The undead are pretty well done. they might need a unit with high hit point and doing a lot of domage... like a flesh golem (about equivalent to a troll).

[Kamahawk]

A while ago Blades and I came up with a human longbowman idea....
But because I was doing the unit pics for them thier attack animations were never finished

Probebly due to the fact that my artistic skill ≤0
So if any of the new (or old) artists want to finish/improve them go ahead, the basic pictures are allready done:
http://wesnoth.whitevine.net/forum/phpB ... 90&start=0

[Christophe33]

A while ago Blades and I came up with a human longbowman idea....
But because I was doing the unit pics for them thier attack animations were never finished

Probebly due to the fact that my artistic skill <=0
So if any of the new (or old) artists want to finish/improve them go ahead, the basic pictures are allready done:
http://wesnoth.whitevine.net/forum/phpB ... 90&start=0

I had also considered the longbowman and didn't know it have been considered. The English longbowmen were extremely efficient against the French horsemen during the 14-15 century "100" years war. What characteristic did you had in mind?
I think they should shout less often than elf bowmen but with more dommage, something like 8-2 to 10-2 at level one. They were usually equiped with short sword or knive if reduced to hand to hand combat. Becoming a skilled bowman takes lot of time (I tried a bit ) contrary to crossbow so it should be reflected in high exprience needed.
I'm not great at making graphic but I will try to edit yours. I did some unit drawing/editing for my civilization scenarios ...that I never completely finished. I saved the pictures on my harddrive and might be able to work on them during the week-end.

[Dave]

A while ago Blades and I came up with a human longbowman idea....
But because I was doing the unit pics for them thier attack animations were never finished

Probebly due to the fact that my artistic skill ≤0
So if any of the new (or old) artists want to finish/improve them go ahead, the basic pictures are allready done:
http://wesnoth.whitevine.net/forum/phpB ... 90&start=0

Yes, it'd be great if someone were to finish animating these units. They would make an excellent addition!

David

[Christophe33]

Since I had a bit of time while waiting for my wife (I'm using my computer at work) I played a bit with the picture for the level3 longbow master. I basically lighten it, tried to had a red feather on his helmet and a bundle of arrow at his back. For the attack, do you just need the string to be pulled and the arm moved accordingly?
Do you need a melee attack too (with short sword?)
Thsi version is in jpeg. I tried to save in png, but I don't know what option/filter to select and the colors were all wrong in the preview on the web site even though they were fine on my computer.

[Kamahawk]

Nice

For all the necesary attack animations just look at the Evlish Archer for the various positions. (Attack Melee)(Atack Bow Aiming)(Atack Bow Pulled Back)(Defend). For the close range weapon the following ideas have been sugested: A dagger or short sword, a hammer or small club.

Thanks for working on the Archer, I can get all the images in the right format when your doen with them.

I think the ability for the longbowman and bowmaster was going to be an extra arrow attack in ANY combat situation that was fired at the begining of combat.

[Christophe33]

OK, I will try to work more on it tomorrow...when I'm at work .
What about giving the longbowman and Master an optional attack with fire arrows? Would have one less attack because of precaution to avoid burning yourself but it would be more efficient against units resistant to pierce attack (mostly undeads).
From my little experience of using bow and what I read about it... the more you practice, the stronger the bow you can use efficiently and the faster you can shout.
I will see if I can reuse some of the units I made for civilization. There is a cute simple icon editor in civ that might be usable to make/modify units for Wesnoth.