My holiday soap box.

[bigkahuna]

Yes they started out religious, but they've become so much more. They've become more inclusive. They've become happier times for more people. Christmas for example is no longer a birthday of a deity a lot of people don't even believe in. Now anyone can decide to celebrate it. You don't have to know anything about the religion, but on that day you can get together with millions of others and be happy.

I totally agree with that, except for the underlined statement. Christmas was, is, and always will be a holiday celebrating the birth of "a deity a lot of people don't even believe in". Just like on Halloween, which used to be a "holiday" for the occult worshippers, non-Christians take off on Christmas and make their own holiday which doesn't involve the original meaning at all. Really just a borrowed holiday.

I think it's ridiculous to the extreme for anyone to tell me what the "true meaning" of my holiday is. Or to tell me what the "right way" to celebrate it is. You can teach the history of the day all you want. It's important to know how we got where we are. But things change, and people should be able to celebrate how they want.

"Teaching the history" of the day and "explaining the meaning" of the day are the same things. You can't hate one and tolerate the other. I agree that no-one should go around yelling at people for not celebrating the "right way". Of course people can choose to celebrate however they want, whether or not they stay true to the original intent. After all life is a choice.

So when I hear a radio advertisement telling me to remember the "true meaning", or see a forum signature with the word Christ in Christmas underlined I honestly get a little bit sad about my holiday.

Again with the "my holiday". Like I said earlier, the original purpose of Christmas was to commemorate the birth of Christ. For all those who don't believe this, Christmas is just a borrowed holiday. Getting mad at others for reminding you of the reason the day is a holiday is like a Brit deciding to celebrate the Fourth of July by watching fireworks and getting angry at Americans for making patriotic speeches.
Off-topic:

Spoiler:

The above strikethrough was uncalled for on the verge of flaming.

Because then I realize that somewhere out there is someone so uncontent with their own holiday that they have to try to infringe upon mine. And then I remember that the world is still a nasty place like that. People can't work together to make the world happier for everyone. Nope. Some people think their way is so right and so awesome that they should harass others about it.

I agree that some people are so unforgiving that they inherently have prejudice against the quote "non-believers", the Brits celebrating the fourth of July or the Catholic celebrating Kwaanza. As you said,

Ironically when it comes to religion, this is almost always the exact opposite of what they're supposed to believe and do.

And I am truly sorry if those people have given you the wrong idea about Christians or religion in general. Many, and I can unfortunately claim from experience, most people who claim the name Christian don't at all live up to what that really means. Just for a graphic analogy,

It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

And I really pity those people, because of the above statement.
[/soap_box]

Miscellanous Responses:

Spoiler:

Christmas as such stands for so much more than it can actual holds up to.

I get a free day free. What more do I need?

Go out and find your meanings, everyone, lest the purpose for living be drowned out by vapid media. After all, at a certain point, everything can be peeled down to a layer where no underlying order can be found. It is thus your duty to make something meaningful for yourself on whatever holy day you are celebrating, regardless of name, and thus to perpetuate mankind's importance in the whole, with a simple yet broad method.

Having no life purpose or meaning is a very lonely thing. I hope you find it, or mankind's existence isn't important at all.

Gosh, I sound like a sap tonight, don't I?

Yes, yes you do.

[Girgistian]

I totally agree with that, except for the underlined statement. Christmas was, is, and always will be a holiday celebrating the birth of "a deity a lot of people don't even believe in". Just like on Halloween, which used to be a "holiday" for the occult worshippers, non-Christians take off on Christmas and make their own holiday which doesn't involve the original meaning at all. Really just a borrowed holiday.

In respect to your beliefs and the friendliness of most of the people using the forums, I'll try to put this in a neutral and civil manner, even though your claim makes my internet-hater-blood boil.

Christmas has been criticized by some for being pagan in origin"

^said by someone who says consider himself one of the true Christians, yes, Christmas is actually build right next to, into, and around the original pagan celebration of the winter slowly turning to spring and summer, and that's an actual historical fact, not an opinion. The non-Christians (including very much myself) who find this event nice and celebrate it are by no means borrowing or faking a holiday. People might enjoy and respect different aspects of the same holiday, but that doesn't (always) mean it's any more emptier or unholier to them than it is to a Christian. No offence attempted, just pointing this out in hopes that you'll please respect it if others don't find the same things important in this time of the year as you do.

[wayfarer]

Well your spoiler contains a bit puzzling answer

Having no life purpose or meaning is a very lonely thing. I hope you find it, or mankind's existence isn't important at all.

Our natural coded life purpose is simple reproducing, go make some children and die.
The god given? Well god in his omnipotence has forgotten the product insert or his intention was that there is no purpose.
Either way I now imply that every poster here has his/her own purpose in life I quess it is to live.

I've read somewhere the way is everything the goal is nothing. I think you can call that a quite big purpose.
Perhaps you'll get points for a good "life" in the end on your Karma Bank or a better Reincarnation who knows or perhaps you just get a fruit basket and a card "better luck next time ups sorry that was your last time".
Do you want to bet your whole life on it?

[Gambit]

Again with the "my holiday". Like I said earlier, the original purpose of Christmas was to commemorate the birth of Christ. For all those who don't believe this, Christmas is just a borrowed holiday.

No. It's not borrowed because only one person can own it, and that is the person celebrating it. For me that person is me and nobody else. I can't change the history and historic events, but I alone choose the meaning. For you that is you and nobody else. You can't change the history and historic events, but you alone choose the meaning. History is facts. Meaning is personal.

[bigkahuna]

most of the people using the forums

I apologize if I'm not friendly enough to meet your requirements

pagan celebration of the winter slowly turning to spring and summer.

Sorry, I forgot that piece of information However, I object to the fact that Christmas is "actually built right next to, into, and around the original pagan celebration" etc.

The original holiday was the "birth of the sun", and since everyone is so fond of puns, Christians picked next to/around the same day to mean the "birth of the Son". It doesn't mean Christmas is built "into" the pagan holiday, neither is the pagan holiday "built into" Christmas. December 25th was just a convenient day for everyone, it doesn't mean that Christmas is commemerating the Winter Solstice (correct me if I'm wrong, I never liked almanacs ). Non-Christians could celebrate their free day and call it "Birth of the Sun Day" if they want, but they choose to go along with religious tradition while attempting to keep it separate from whatever they are choosing to celebrate.

The god given? Well god in his omnipotence has forgotten the product insert or his intention was that there is no purpose. Either way I now imply that every poster here has his/her own purpose in life I guess it is to live.

I don't know about you but I believe that He didn't really hide it. I believe that I've found my purpose. I don't know where you are coming from, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on a vague idea that "life is whatever you make of it", which under that philosophy would be nothing.

I've read somewhere the way is everything the goal is nothing. I think you can call that a quite big purpose.
Perhaps you'll get points for a good "life" in the end on your Karma Bank or a better Reincarnation who knows or perhaps you just get a fruit basket and a card "better luck next time ups sorry that was your last time".
Do you want to bet your whole live on it?

Your "purpose" is (and I quote): "simple reproducing, go make some children and die." Well. And when you die, either nothing happens at all or you get to try again. Pretty much a freebie life there. Do whatever you want with no consequences.

But what if you were wrong? What if your whole life you were wrong about the whole "there is no goal to life"? What if there was a purpose but you were too busy not having one that you missed it and had to face the consequences? Do you want to bet your life on it?

No. It's not borrowed because only one person can own it, and that is the person celebrating it. For me that person is me and nobody else. I can't change the history and historic events, but I alone choose the meaning. For you that is you and nobody else. You can't change the history and historic events, but you alone choose the meaning. History is facts. Meaning is personal.

Meanings and interpretations can be wrong, especially when based on simply opinion or limited understanding. I could suddenly decide that the outcome of WWII meant that all Germans were evil, but I would be misinterpreting the historical facts.

[wesfreak]

I think you're misinterpreting Waferer's point: His point is to make your life worth living, and not worry about the goal, or purpose. You are interpreting it as the point of life is to reproduce. (although you could argue that his goal/purpose is living life to the fullest)

You are also saying that a "meaning" and an "interpretation" is the same thing. That is incorrect. An interpretation is the lesson you draw from a story, phrase, forum post or the like. Misinterpreting something would be drawing the wrong lesson, like interpreting the outcome of WWII is that all Germans were evil. There is a single correct interpretation, and an infinite amount of incorrect interpretations. A meaning is the significance of something. An event could have a different significance to a different person, country or culture. There is no single correct meaning of something.

[bigkahuna]

His point is to make your life worth living, and not worry about the goal, or purpose.

If you don't worry about the goal you most likely will never reach it.

You are also saying that a "meaning" and an "interpretation" is the same thing.

Okay. I interpreted his post wrong

But,

There is no single correct meaning of something.

Does this imply that there no correct "meaning of life"? No matter what anyone decides or tries to come up with, they will inevitably be wrong? Or do the "meaning of life" and the "interpretation of life" mean the same thing here?

[wesfreak]

There is no single correct meaning of something.

Emphasis on single: Life would not have the same meaning to a devout Christian is it would to a devout Wiccan, for example.

[bigkahuna]

So all meanings of life are correct, but none of them are solely right, and you believe none of them? If one's meaning of life is to kill everyone and another's is to save them, they can't both be right.

If Christians believe that there is only one way to life, but no meanings of life are solely correct, then their meaning of life would be wrong, but all meanings of life are supposed to be right ( ) All of these things directly contradict what you've been saying.

[wesfreak]

Another misinterpretation: Not all meanings of life are correct, life has a different meaning to each person, just like Christmas does.
(I also don't think that killing everyone or saving everyone even count as meanings of life, but I suppose if someone was completely insane life could mean killing everyone to them.)

[Pentarctagon]

How about this:
There is not a global meaning of life, but everyone has their individual meanings?

[bigkahuna]

This is turning into a hopeless slog debate. I won't use up any more of my time on this

[wesfreak]

How about this:
There is not a global meaning of life, but everyone has their individual meanings?

Thank you for putting what I had to say in a more eloquent way. Agreed.

[Daravel]

I think it's ridiculous to the extreme for anyone to tell me what the "true meaning" of my holiday is. Or to tell me what the "right way" to celebrate it is. You can teach the history of the day all you want. It's important to know how we got where we are. But things change, and people should be able to celebrate how they want.

But it is the "true meaning" whether you like it or not.

Not so long ago the majority of Europe was Christian in some form or other and Christmas was celebrated in the same way each year in rememberance of the birth of Jesus. In the past 100 years there has been mass migration/immigration and there are now many faiths in our contries and the rise of the "scientific method" as an 'allowed' viewpoint in the 17/1800's has brought out a considerable number of atheists. This paved the way for money hungry companies with few scruples to barge in and redefine the holiday (Coca Cola redesigning Santa/Christmas cards/wrapping paper/Christmas dinner/Crackers/Decorations/Tree (from Prince Albert)/alcohol).

My point? Why do we start celebrating Christmas as a child? Probably because of our parents, as it's the thing to do.
But, why do we continue celebrating it? I'd put money on 80% of answers being: presents. I know mine is.
All throughout childhood we are captivated by the idea of food and presents - how many children would say they were excited for Christmas because of Jesus or because or family? Of course, as adults it is no longer about the presents, instead, ask many parents and you get one answer: The kids.

Somewhat of a circle going here... Kids get given presents, kids love presents, kids love Christmas, kids grow up and give their kids christmas.
So why do you celebrate Christmas, really?

I know that many adults here will tell me that it's about the family, which it is, and that's good. But remember, the new generation gets hooked on Christmas, not through the promise of seeing Auntie Mabel again, but by the promise of presents and food.

I'm not applying the above statements to you personally Gambit as I know nothing about you; I was just exploring the nature by which non-Christians (as I assume you are) claim equal ownership of Christmas. I know I didn't cover every possible reason. I think we grow up celebrating Christmas so we contine celebrating it - nothing is stronger than a good old tradition. But at the end of the day, we are mostly hypocrits; atheists getting free presents and time off work. Consider how many of the commercialised aspects of Christmas you partake in and think about how much it is just a commercial deception.

*I'm not attacking you personally Gambit, I just used your thoughts as a springboard for my own. I'm talking about people in general. And I mean no offence to anyone (I fully respect the "true meaning" of Christmas even if I don't believe in it) and I'm an outright supporter of freedom of faith/belief/thought.

[ElvenKing]

I don't know about you but I believe that He didn't really hide it. I believe that I've found my purpose. I don't know where you are coming from, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on a vague idea that "life is whatever you make of it", which under that philosophy would be nothing.

Do you want to bet your whole live on it?

Your "purpose" is (and I quote): "simple reproducing, go make some children and die." Well. And when you die, either nothing happens at all or you get to try again. Pretty much a freebie life there. Do whatever you want with no consequences.

But what if you were wrong? What if your whole life you were wrong about the whole "there is no goal to life"? What if there was a purpose but you were too busy not having one that you missed it and had to face the consequences? Do you want to bet your life on it?

Meanings and interpretations can be wrong, especially when based on simply opinion or limited understanding. I could suddenly decide that the outcome of WWII meant that all Germans were evil, but I would be misinterpreting the historical facts.

The idea of "life is what you make it" is not meaningless because it never refers to an infinite existence for it to have meaning. All the "making" refers to what is done during the life. This actually makes a quite a bit of sense because assuming that there is no afterlife, the only time that things actually matter, that is, the only time anything is ever felt is during life, which means that all the happiness of should happen and the pain of should not happen occur when life is being lived. If nothing in the end matters, then all that matters is what happens now.

In addition, the now does not cease to have meaning even in the case of an afterlife which requires that someone take a certain meaning. Any suffering that occurs as a result of acting so that your actions are in-line with what will be expected in the end still exist. Any happiness that exists in doing actions that will cause you to get punished in the end still exist. This world does not lack consequences, as it matters so very terribly to people who exist within it. You kill someone, a person someone loves is gone. A consequence. You laze about and never work, you lack money and cannot get what you might want in the future. A consequence. I could go on and on.

Yes, some people would, as there is also the risk that in your actions, if you are wrong, will cause needless suffering in the current world(or it might be, in some cases, that someone thinks that the suffering in this world is not worth putting up with even if you will end up being punished). There is also the problem that the nature of a possible afterlife is not known, and so the wager you propose there doesn't actually work, as it may be that the correct actions for entering a good afterlife are to live "life is what you make it."

The meaning that Germans were evil were still present in that case. Of course, the reason that they are supposedly evil, that they are Nazi's, is not true, but that doesn't change that germans feel evil to this person. That only changes when the feeling that Germans are evil is gone.