Campaign idea pitch

[A-Red]

I apologize for the offense and I'm not trying to hold you back. I just don't see anything in DiD that suggests Malin is motivated by a lust for power, and the majority of campaigns for wesnoth seem to be about power-hungry liches being used as stock villains. To me, Descent into Darkness was all about subverting that, and showing that liches aren't necessarily evil, because people do things for lots of reasons.

You're borrowing a character, after all. It's under GPL and you have the artistic freedom to do whatever you want with him, but consistency is an important part of good writing.

[TheGreatRings]

I apologize for the offense and I'm not trying to hold you back. I just don't see anything in DiD that suggests Malin is motivated by a lust for power, and the majority of campaigns for wesnoth seem to be about power-hungry liches being used as stock villains. To me, Descent into Darkness was all about subverting that, and showing that liches aren't necessarily evil, because people do things for lots of reasons.

You're borrowing a character, after all. It's under GPL and you have the artistic freedom to do whatever you want with him, but consistency is an important part of good writing.

Just because his motive isn't power doesn't mean he can't be evil.

[Zerovi]

If he didn't lust for power why would he have become a lich in the first place? Even more, why would he have taken the book from Volk?

[bigkahuna]

Just because his motive isn't power doesn't mean he can't be evil.

If he didn't lust for power why would he have become a lich in the first place? Even more, why would he have taken the book from Volk?

He became a lich because he was dying and he didn't want to die, and he already had the book. He took the book from Darken Volk because Darken Volk used him to get it, and he felt wronged (you notice in DiD he has problems with people making fun of him or using him for their own purposes).

He is evil, but a different kind of evil. He doesn't want to take over the world, he simply wants to exterminate orcs off the face of the earth for what they did to his city, and kill anyone who gets in his way. Normally this would be called evil, but he is doing it for 'a good cause'. Food for thought there.

[Kapoue_II]

Just because his motive isn't power doesn't mean he can't be evil.

He is evil, but a different kind of evil. He doesn't want to take over the world, he simply wants to exterminate orcs off the face of the earth for what they did to his city, and kill anyone who gets in his way. Normally this would be called evil, but he is doing it for 'a good cause'. Food for thought there.

In my opinion, Malin went mad with power.

"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Malin was originally a nice guy, but he went a bit insane towards the end. He would have become a lich to save himself even if he wasn't evil-DiD shows us that necromancers can be doing what they do for a good cause- but as it was, he was evil anyway.

What is he going to do with an undead dragon?

Well I presume the answer is world domination. If it's enough for one lich....

However, lets face it : one skeletral dragon? Hell , my Heavy Infantrymen eat them for breakfast. One just is not going to be enough to conquer wesnoth. I think it should be an ancient dragon and her brood of maybe 8-9 "teenage" dragons. Obviously, they are all dead, but Malin finds the huge power in their corpses while doing magic, and immediately realises the (obvious) advantage of having half a dozen skeletral dragons bound to his will. If you want to be nasty to the PC, have it so that he knows the drakes will join him if their ancester dragons do.

Like the idea, if you want I can help code it but seriously : WML is not that hard! People get put of by the whole "its like computer programming therefore you must have 6 degrees in IT from Oxford Uni to do it.". I know a 12 year old boy who can write scenario's . If he can do it, you can, so stop being lazy, and learn like everyone else does!

[bvanevery]

What is he going to do with an undead dragon?

And another, more important question I'm not sure you've thought about a whole lot: who is the protagonist here? Who am I supposed to like more? What are the motives of everyone involved? It sounds like you've taken a rather likeable and complex protagonist from another campaign and turned him into a villain just because he's a lich.

I have actually put a lot of thought into this and the comment you made was rather insulting to me. Keshar craves power and he is rather evil. I thought it'd be interesting to flesh put on the history of Keshar between the time he becomes a lich, and the events of Invasion from the unknown. You don't have to like it, but you do have to respect my artistic freedom.

Respect is earned. You haven't respected the storyline of Mal Keshar. He dies "in the end," after hordes and hordes and hordes of adventurers come to kill him, as a matter of dramatic purpose. It defines the sad existence of his character. You as an "afterthought author" are basically saying, well let's just forget about all that, and keep trucking with Mal Keshar because... why? Is this fan fiction on your part? You don't seem to have understood the themes of Descent into Darkness at all. I don't think it's DiD's fault either. I think it's the only campaign in mainline with a strong character arc, it does a pretty good job of laying it all out, and for some reason you simply don't get it.

Please pick on some other lich. Don't give Mal Keshar a happy ending, or offspring, or anything redeeming to the end of his existence. He is supposed to die lonely, and ultimately powerless despite any power he may have acquired in life or death.

Maybe you're trying to make a sequel because you want "more stuff like Descent into Darkness." I suggest you think of the Knowledge of Necromancy as the basis of a sequel, rather than Mal Keshar. Just as the historical continuity of Middle Earth is defined by the One Ring, not by the specific protagonists who encounter it at a particular moment in space and time.

Or maybe you just want to do liches and undead dragons. Fine, go do liches and undead dragons, but please don't feel obligated to attach it to Mal Keshar.

[bigkahuna]

Owch.

Please pick on some other lich. Don't give Mal Keshar a happy ending, or offspring, or anything redeeming to the end of his existence. He is supposed to die lonely, and ultimately powerless despite any power he may have acquired in life or death.

I believe this was a bit harsh. Also, Mal Keshar does get a happy ending. In Invasion from the Unknown, Mal Keshar is used, I won't give away the storyline, and I don't know what happens after IftU, but so far he is still 'happy'. Him dying in the mainline campaign is meant to be a 'possible' outcome. He doesn't have any 'defined' ending. Although IftU is not mainline, it is accepted as mainline and canonical in most circles (written by Shadowmaster, so it has to be ).


After seeing some of the comments you made (Originally in TLU and here) I think you need to tone it down a bit

[teyatilleythekitsune]

Though I am just a humble newblet here, I would like to insert my two cents.
Both sides have seen a bit harsh here.
As to whether Mal actually dies or not, I would ask the person who made the campaign regardless of what the popular consensus is. And since I am just a humble newblet, for all I know, some one of you already has.

Zerovi did say something that could come across as a bit arrogant:

You don't have to like it, but you do have to respect my artistic freedom.

Though that isn't a statement that is wrong in and of itself, typically when someone reads this they will conjure images of arrogance. I urge everyone to take into account that this may not be the case and remind everyone that it is hard to tell emotions via internet.

bvanevery also seemed harsh, but I can understand why he feels that the story has been betrayed. It is a powerful idea: the idea of Mal's ending the way he did, powerful and beautiful in it's own tragic way. To imagine it any other way, one might think, would drain from the purpose, wouldn't it?
I, for one, think it would not. In fact I think it would add to the purpose. Wouldn't it add to the deepness of the sorrow if, in fact, he could have survived, but in the storyline you play, he does not. So you know he COULD have done it. It was in his grasp and reach, but it was denied him in that view. I see that adding to the tragedy and to its beauty.

[doofus-01]

He dies "in the end," after hordes and hordes and hordes of adventurers come to kill him, as a matter of dramatic purpose.

Not saying that is wrong, but Mal Keshar is apparently revived to show up in Invasion from the Unknown (example). In some ways, that makes it even worse to revive him yet again.

[joshudson]

Well considering that in IftU, Mal Kesher gets disintegrated twice and is not destroyed, perhaps foolish hero thought he was disposed of. I don't say dead because he was already dead since he became a lich.

[pauxlo]

What is he going to do with an undead dragon?

Well I presume the answer is world domination. If it's enough for one lich....

Going with DiD, maybe he only wants the dragon to exterminate orcs better (in greater distance of his lair) - but of course the protagonist of this campaign doesn't know/believe this, and thinks about more sinister motives.

And yes, a single undead dragon is not so much for a whole campaign - maybe he's going to plunder kind of a dragon cemetery (or a dinosaur museum )

[bigkahuna]

(or a dinosaur museum )

Now THAT could be an epic spoof. Mal Keshar survives AtS and IftU despite the odds and manages to make it into the 21st century

[wesfreak]

That would be funny: skeledino's against units from modern combat.

What if you were to add more depth to the dragon: when Mal Keshar raises it as his servant, the dragon's ghost comes back, angry at being denied it's final rest. You could have Mal Keshar, with a skeledragon hero vs. a ghost dragon and whatever army it raises. You might have to add some reason that Mal Keshar can't give up the dragon's body though. He has to need it for some reason.

[Noitakuningas]

Ahem. Let me make a suggestion here.

Mal Keshar was destroyed at the end of the campaign.. or at least his physical form was. With the power amassed over years of devouring souls and gathering knowledge, he managed to, with his dying breath (figure of speech, of course) let out a hellish scream that ripped asunder the spirits of his assailants, sending his own soul wandering off into some dark, deep place of the world where he bid his time, waiting and scheming. Now, centuries later, he has finally gathered enough strength to re-emerge, his plan being to assimilate his being with that of a long-dead wyrm-father Gar'galarion, making him one of the most powerful liches the world has ever seen; the form of a terrifying undead monstrosity and the cunning, twisted mind of a sorcerous lich.

Now, from here we can have two different ideas; either the Foolish Hero that finally killed Mal Keshar was Dela herself, who finally found out her brother's hideout, or she simply never really believed he was dead, passing on the knowledge of his evil to her children, who then passed it on to their children. With Malin awakening from his slumber, Dela's descendants must take up arms and prevent his evil ploy..

It would be cool if the Campaign was actually two-sided: either you can play as Mal Keshar and strive to unleash an army of darkness over Wesnoth, or as Dela's grand-grandchildren who attempt to stop him.


EDIT: Oh, oh! If you want to go with a more Cthulhu-esque story, make the villain/main character a random mage who suddenly starts hearing whispers, first in his dream, then awake, and finally sees Mal Keshar's ghost at times, who is speaking to him from the bowels of the Earth, urging him to do his bidding and get this ancient dragon to him so he can possess the corpse and reincarnate. This way you could also do honor to the original series, in which a young Mage spirals into corruption, even though he means good at first.

[wesfreak]

This would require a double re-incarnation though, or at least a shape-shift, because Mal Keshar comes back in Invasion of the Unknown.