This is how the Dwarves lost Moria

[Darkmage]

Well this is why goblins can be slow fool or other thing i can't remember now ...

Against such a quantity of short legged weak fools, a ghost, ghoul or skeleton won't do bad, or at least i think so, your oponent could have buildt a wall and heal on his back, after all, ghosts have drain, not to think about wraiths, a shadow's backstab kills one on a hit, or two hits, in case. Piercing resinstance of skeletons is high, and on a mountain/forest is not easy to hit them, and a ghoul could make them slow, if you get a deathblade, or if you're eager a revenant, the things ease...

Perhaps i'm too theroretical and less practical...

[Dragonchampion]

Dwarvish Ulfserkers- Eliminate them!

[palloco]

If your opponent tries to hoard gold vs your massed level 0 units, you can attack him.

Exactly! That is my point. If you attack early you cant really mass lvl0, if you dont attack, you will be unable to face the opponent once he starts recruiting. And you can easily predict when lvl0 units may attack you.

That is why lvl0 spams fails against experienced opponents.

[sitenuker]

I'm not arguing that this needs to change; I've seen l0 hoards beaten as well as victorious. I'm just trying to explain JD's point, although it seems like you don't understand how upkeep works

But JW's point is that it does need to change.

I'm going to refuse to become you by arguing with you. You clearly lack a lot of insight. Try rereading...no wait...try reading the opening post and think about why lvl 0 spam is different than "level 1 spam."

I now leave you to your own devices.

So, you can raise a huge army of level 0 units if your opponent sits around and lets you. Where does it say this is not supposed to happen? As far as I can see these units are working as intended. Huge hordes of goblins or walking corpses do not seem thematically inappropriate, nor is there any evidence in the OP that they unbalance the game.

If somebody does have evidence that they unbalance the game, or are not working as intended, please share.

[Caphriel]

But JW's point is that it does need to change.

I know. I haven't been convinced of that yet, but palloco didn't seem to understand why JD though that, so I was trying to shed some light. He still doesn't seem to understand what I'm saying, though, or maybe I don't understand what he's saying. Either way, we're not making progress in understanding each other, so I give up PM me if you want to continue the discussion, palloco

[JW]

I'm going to refuse to become you by arguing with you. You clearly lack a lot of insight. Try rereading...no wait...try reading the opening post and think about why lvl 0 spam is different than "level 1 spam."

I now leave you to your own devices.

So, you can raise a huge army of level 0 units if your opponent sits around and lets you. Where does it say this is not supposed to happen? As far as I can see these units are working as intended. Huge hordes of goblins or walking corpses do not seem thematically inappropriate, nor is there any evidence in the OP that they unbalance the game.

If somebody does have evidence that they unbalance the game, or are not working as intended, please share.

Ahhh...a refreshing breath of intelligent dissent. I can see that you have an opinion based on reason instead of....something else....

lvl 0s generally won't affect many games, but play on a map like Fallenstar lake and you'll see the % of games where lvl 0s take over skyrocket. It really depends on the map style whether or not a player will be able to effectively get away with using such a tactic - but the tactic is always available.

I just find the fact that 2/6 factions can fill up all the hexes of a map to be rather unfair. If all 6 factions could do the same thing I might not mind so much, but it might still bug me. I can't really say for sure because I've been playing Wesnoth as is for 4+ (5?) years now.

[Dragonchampion]

I thought it was more like 4/6... I don't think the elves or drakes have a swarmer, though.

Peasant for Loyalists
WC for Undead
That Lvl 0 Outlaw for Knalgans
Goblins for Orcs.

[thespaceinvader]

Except for the fact that neither Peasants nor Ruffians are available in default MP, you might have a point...

[Dragonchampion]

They should be available for MP. I mean, Undead and Orcs have lvl 0s...

And the Drake Hatchling (from Flight to Freedom) could easily be made as a lvl 0 for the Drakes...

[Turuk]

They should be available for MP. I mean, Undead and Orcs have lvl 0s...

And the Drake Hatchling (from Flight to Freedom) could easily be made as a lvl 0 for the Drakes...

You do not think that they who balance the game have not taken this into consideration, and thus there is a reason that they are not included? Also, an effort was made for the factions to not be carbon copies of each other.

[Dragonchampion]

Well, OK. I was just thinking...

Srry.

[Turuk]

Well, OK. I was just thinking...

Srry.

I know, I am just reminding you that for such questions, it has most likely been discussed previously given that those units have been around for so long, and so there is a reason for why they are not included.

[Eolith]

You mean, something like Elves are weak vs Undead, but properly handled are actually stronger? Then again, I hate fighting Drakes because two of their units are often worth three of mine (except in defense, but that does not much matter in open terrain...)

[Darkmage]

Elves are not weaker than unded, obviously if you send mermen hunters on land to kill undead that's going to be a massacre...(just an example) i do love playing with both undead or elves and they can be managed well against the other, you have to know weaknesses, with undead, any offensive movement has to be well planned, because during day the elves can make your army become just a sack of bones(not moving) and for elves, on open field, are dead elves...

For drakes, a horse rider during day, with piercing and charge, is a destroyer... and for elves the basic units there archers, fighters and if you want healers, are cheaper than a drake, 21 gold a burner, if you take care, the drakes' cost is higher, so they should last longer...

[Eolith]

I know. It is just that in some campaigns you really cannot recruit more units than the enemy, sometimes because all the villages are on their side of the map. At times like that, you need a few big, powerful units more than the same number of weaker units.

I always hate fighting Undead with Elves (especially when Woses are not available) because the Undead have such high resistance to blade and pierce. This immediately weakens the Elves' best units, putting them at a major disadvantage if the Undead ever manage to catch them. (Except in forest, of course. There, mixing Shamans and Fighters with care tends to decimate Skeleton armies, while Archers and Scouts can be used to keep Ghosts and Vampire Bats at bay. This works in other terrain as well, but not as effectively.)

By the way, have you ever tried playing Drakes vs Undead, or vice versa? It makes for an interesting game, since both sides have good attacks vs their enemies, but poor resistances when they are on the defensive.