Fly an ability?!

[CIB]

Just wondering.. Do flying units have something like $unit.flying=true already? That would be enough to implement the flying ability in UMC.

[Baufo]

Just wondering.. Do flying units have something like $unit.flying=true already? That would be enough to implement the flying ability in UMC.

No. That is my whole point why a fly ability would not make sense. It is just a movement type.

[Elvish_Pillager]

KISS.

What could be more simple than giving units that can fly the "fly" ability?

Not making it an ability would be more simple. Redundancy is not simplicity.

[irrevenant]

No. That is my whole point why a fly ability would not make sense. It is just a movement type.

You're arguing that Fly can't be an ability because it's just a movement type.

But that's the point. Unless it's made into an ability, Fly can never be more than a movement type! Yes, the Fly ability would be essentially a label, but that label enables other abilities to interact with it. When it's made clear which units fly then you can have anti-air (or anti-ground) weapons (or heals). Heck, you could have flying villages that only flying units can enter.

Not making it an ability would be more simple. Redundancy is not simplicity.

Labelling something is not redundancy, it's improving the interface.

[Angry Andersen]

BTW, another use for the 'fly' ability just came up in the Free Goblins thread - a hot-air balloon unit that can only be engaged in melee by other flying units.

I was thinking of that point too. But the important question here is, if this is desirable. It would make ZoC-ing units like grunts rediculously easy and thereby shielding retreats etc. quite simple in some cases.

So if a unit cannot be attacked in melee, it also should not have ZoC (unless against other fliers, or maybe if it chooses to, but if it ZoCs a melee unit, that unit should be allowed to attack it in return).
It maybe shouldn't even be able to block opponents from walking through the hex: why is it a problem to walk under a flying unit?

IMHO, while the idea sounds simple at first, it quickly gets more complicated if you want to keep things intuitive (a certain amount of realism adds to intuitivity and therefore is KISS, although of course WINR).

Therefore I prefer leaving this the way it currently is, simply because it already is the best solution.

[Nebiros]

Heck, you could have flying villages that only flying units can enter.

Village + Chasm can already do that, can't it? (A slightly uglier version is just to surround a village with chasms, although that also makes it an unattackable sanctuary.)

There's no art for it and it would be horribly unbalanced in MP, but if you want to make it for a campaign, I think it's already possible.

[thespaceinvader]

Whilst i agree with Irrevenant that a flying ability might make life much more interesting and more realistic (it bugs me that, for example, a Gryphon Rider cannot just fly straight OVER an enemy ground unit - it makes no sense that they can't) i suspect that it would violate KISS somewhat, so i think it's something that i can live without.

[Noyga]

Well it also works with other things like climbing, swiming, etc... You might end up with load of useless abilities.

Btw there's no need this to make a village only accessible to flyers, you can do this with a chasm-bordered village.
It can also already be done with a custom terrain (using worse movement, best or worse defense), so well what would the ability be for ?

[joshudson]

If you want flys as a trait, try this code:

Code: Select all

#define TRAIT_FLYS
[trait]
 id=flys
 name=_ "Flys"
 apply_to=movement_costs
 replace=yes
 [movement_costs]
  grass=1
  forest=1
  hills=1
  mountains=1
  swamp=1
  shallow_water=1
  swamp_water=1
  deep_water=1
 [/movement_costs]
[/trait]
#enddef

[thespaceinvader]

I think Irrevenant wants to make it about more than just movement - that would not, for instance, stop a flying unit from being attackable in ground-based melee combat, or enable it to overfly enemy units etc etc etc.

[Airk]

You want to know why a "fly" ability is a bad idea? Please list the units that should have it.

Now observe that the Gryphon has a different movement rate than the bat, which has a different movement rate than the Sylph, which has a different movement rate than the ghost.

Which of those units is "flying" and why do we care? If "flying" really -were- a consistant movetype, there might be some merit in this (But then I would suggest that there be clear labels for ALL movetypes, like WoodlandFoot and Elusivefoot, or whatever, and that those be displayed.), but there really -isn't-. There is no consistancy here to label. Shall we create a "flutter" label for Shydes and Sylphs, and "glide" label for Griffons and Drakes and a "flap" label for Bats, and a "hover" label for Ghosts? No.

And that's the answer to the "Fly" label too.

[Noy]

You want to know why a "fly" ability is a bad idea? Please list the units that should have it.

Now observe that the Gryphon has a different movement rate than the bat, which has a different movement rate than the Sylph, which has a different movement rate than the ghost.

Which of those units is "flying" and why do we care? If "flying" really -were- a consistant movetype, there might be some merit in this (But then I would suggest that there be clear labels for ALL movetypes, like WoodlandFoot and Elusivefoot, or whatever, and that those be displayed.), but there really -isn't-. There is no consistancy here to label. Shall we create a "flutter" label for Shydes and Sylphs, and "glide" label for Griffons and Drakes and a "flap" label for Bats, and a "hover" label for Ghosts? No.

And that's the answer to the "Fly" label too.

I like how you think.

[irrevenant]

BTW, another use for the 'fly' ability just came up in the Free Goblins thread - a hot-air balloon unit that can only be engaged in melee by other flying units.

[...]So if a unit cannot be attacked in melee, it also should not have ZoC (unless against other fliers, or maybe if it chooses to, but if it ZoCs a melee unit, that unit should be allowed to attack it in return).

That's how we plan the balloon to work - no ZoC either way vs ground units, and probably ZoC from (but not against) flying units. But that's a balloon-specific thing - balloons just aren't manoeuvrable enough to intercept (eg.) Gryphons.

It maybe shouldn't even be able to block opponents from walking through the hex: why is it a problem to walk under a flying unit?

Agreed, but that's too big a change to gameplay to implement - it would require rewriting the engine. It also would confuse the interface as to which unit you were clicking on.

Anyway, I still think it's a good idea, but the crowd has clearly spoken.

P.S. Airk & Noy: Only one ability is needed. The defence percentages indicate that all flying units are in the air when they meet other units anyway.

[Aethaeryn]

Why shouldn't I be able to melee a balloon that's defending? It'd probably be sitting on the ground between flying - unless hot air balloons are capable of forever staying up? Same with gryphons - they probably nest between flying, etc. And while flying, flying units will either dive down to melee (and thus be able to be attacked back) or not have a melee. So attack-wise, it all makes sense to not distinguish flying and non-flying.

[irrevenant]

Why shouldn't I be able to melee a balloon that's defending?

Because, as I noted (twice) the flat 50% defence percentages indicate that it's in the air while it's being attacked (ie. terrain is not a factor because it's not in the terrain).

Anyway, it's not going to happen, let's call it a day, shall we?