Leadership? Illuminate? Lame!!

JW · Post by JW » May 2nd, 2006, 10:26 pm

DimWit wrote:Makes more sense to me than drain for the lich... The lich is suppose to be the range damage dealer branch of Undead mages... The thing to note is that the Lich does less damage than Human's damage dealing mage path but with (12-3 vs 12-4 range) and (6-3(plauge) - 7-2 melee) would make up for the lack of damage in range... when comparing level 3 units...

Lich: 36 damage
Necromancer: 34 damage

It's not that big of a difference....

If you haven't noticed, Undead are their own faction. There isn't a "damage dealing branch" and a "versatile mage" branch. There is the Lich and the Necromancer. One has drain melee and 3 magical strikes with undead movetype and 6 moves, the other resists holy damage, has 2 ranged strikes, has plague melee and is slower. Factions are supposed to be different in philosophy, not the same.

DimWit wrote:Plauge staff should be givin to level 2+ all Undead mages... since they lack the damage and paths that other races have....

You also fail to realize that there is only one other real mage tree in the game, which belongs to 2 factions. The drakes have the winpy (yet cool) Saurian mages, but I know you aren't comparing the Undead damage and versatility to them (as they have no level 3 unit). 2 of 6 factions have no magic at all....

Post by **Zhukov** » May 3rd, 2006, 12:14 am

All abilities ideas here appear over-complicated or overpowered.
The reasons have been pointed out.

Vampiric Aura: too complicated, not very useful.
Curse: we already have plague
Portal: chronically overpowered
Bless/Enchant/ Purge: EP already explained.
Blind: kinda overpowered, but has some potential if carefully balanced.
Train: again, EP has explained

Darth Fool wrote:
Dave wrote: Huh?
What dave said!

What Darth Fool said!
And that is the first time I have seen a post by Dave that didn't end with "-Dave"

.

Silence of Echo · Post by **Silence of Echo** » May 3rd, 2006, 1:23 am

Each faction is powerful on its own accord.
There is a balance which has painstakingly been reached........

in conclusion,
what Zhukov said.......

DimWit · Post by **DimWit** » May 3rd, 2006, 2:06 am

Silence of Echo wrote:Each faction is powerful on its own accord.
There is a balance which has painstakingly been reached........

in conclusion,
what Zhukov said.......

Really theres a balance

Odd how when players get random undead in multiplayer games the first thing ya hear is them complain.... Maybe should try playing more.... What you do? Whats your nick online than

"Curse: we already have plague"

Yes for WC's its fine... But for a level 3 unit not a level 0 unit its worthless as is....

Playing offline has nothing to do with balancing.... Than your talking about the person who created the campains responsiblity....

Lich: 36 damage
Necromancer: 34 damage
It's not that big of a difference....

Its pitful.... Exactly.... So dwarfs don't have mage huh....
they just can do 30 damage melee and 40 range... with great resists...
and high defense....Night and Day.

If you haven't noticed, Undead are their own faction. There isn't a "damage dealing branch" and a "versatile mage" branch.

Yup they are thier own faction... that gets one thing immune to poison...
for that they lose traits... take huge fire damage... impact.... holy damage... But whats the one class defining thing they get? Plauge and pierce/slash resistance... wow... thats so godly

Might as well go play dwarfs get resistances.. more life...defense and more damage... during night and day...

Elfs: Great range (all are verstile yet good range)... Healer with slow.. Wose, Leadership,dex,marksman

Northerners: trolls(regen), One of the most powerful posioning unit , Cheap units (heck stronger than undead in day)

Drakes: Verstile like elfs with range. Leadership,Flight, Mage with cold damage that heals, Skirmisher

Human: legion gets skirmisher , leadership,charge,healer, scary mage line

Do i have to mention dwarfs?

Now every time something is suggested to add to undead ya hear 10+ people come on and cry NO... if they were really overpowering... Than why does no one play them? I thought the purpose of all factions was to have desireable units... But its sure not the case that all undead units are desireable....

Sure isn't draugs... Sure isn't necromancer... Nightguant isn't even halfway good compared to a dwarf assasin which has a higher damage backstab and poison... with 70% defense..

What does that leave? Spectre,Soul Shooter, Lich.(1,2,3)
Out all of the lvl 3 units the most desired one...... Spectre!
As mention above ... If your undead and you need to kill something...
Its better to forget Lichs. Just use ghosts.. ya you lose magical attack but you get drain in melee... with iffy range damage (cold so good vs hvy inf.. instead of lich)

Please tell me again... Why not just remove the adapt line?

Waits for the childish flames

JW · Post by JW » May 3rd, 2006, 2:08 am

Deathblade at level 2 gets 40 damage. Lich at night does 45 damage. Few units resist Cold damage. The only real weaknesses undead have are fire and impact. Fire is only found in:

1) Drakes (weak to UD cold)
2) Northerners Orcish Archer unit (easily killed by skeletons)
3) Mages (easily taken out at night)

and who else? No one.

Impact is used by heavier hitters who fall easily to cold magic, even better at night.

DimWit · Post by **DimWit** » May 3rd, 2006, 2:15 am

JW wrote:You chose a good username.

to quote dave...

The aim of this forum is brainstorming, not the critique of ideas. Replies to any thread may contain additional ideas, alternative ideas, or constructive criticism of ideas with alternatives.

Whos the dimwit the person who follows the rules or the person that spams stuff like above...

BTW NICE JOB ON EDITING to make yourself look have way intellegent JW.

JW · Post by JW » May 3rd, 2006, 2:19 am

DimWit wrote:
JW wrote:You chose a good username.
to quote dave...
The aim of this forum is brainstorming, not the critique of ideas. Replies to any thread may contain additional ideas, alternative ideas, or constructive criticism of ideas with alternatives.
Whos the dimwit the person who follows the rules or the person that spams stuff like above...

You caught me in an edit.

JW · Post by JW » May 3rd, 2006, 2:23 am

DimWit wrote:But whats the one class defining thing they get? Plauge and pierce/slash resistance... wow... thats so godly

Might as well go play dwarfs get resistances.. more life...defense and more damage... during night and day...

Elfs: Great range (all are verstile yet good range)... Healer with slow.. Wose, Leadership,dex,marksman

Northerners: trolls(regen), One of the most powerful posioning unit , Cheap units (heck stronger than undead in day)

Drakes: Verstile like elfs with range. Leadership,Flight, Mage with cold damage that heals, Skirmisher

Human: legion gets skirmisher , leadership,charge,healer, scary mage line

Do i have to mention dwarfs?

Now every time something is suggested to add to undead ya hear 10+ people come on and cry NO... if they were really overpowering... Than why does no one play them? I thought the purpose of all factions was to have desireable units... But its sure not the case that all undead units are desireable....

Please tell me again... Why not just remove the adapt line?

Waits for the childish flames

The "adapt" is actually the best line for UD. They are also my favorite faction. Whoever cries when they get UD on random not only cries easily, but also doesn't know how to play very well.

When you learn how the game works I'll take you seriously again. You're obviously only trying to bait an argument as seen by this line:

DimWit wrote: Waits for the childish flames

and this line:

DimWit wrote:BTW NICE JOB ON EDITING to make yourself look have way intellegent JW.

Cuyo Quiz · Post by **Cuyo Quiz** » May 3rd, 2006, 3:35 am

Northerners: trolls(regen), One of the most powerful posioning unit , Cheap units (heck stronger than undead in day)

I propose we use this when anyone starts feeling Northeners are bland, until someone comes with a gawdly idea to make them appealing/simpler.

Undead are okay, and just like Northeners, they could use some flavor, but, IMO, NOT this flavor (i side with EP's post here). I believe the complains are in the same line as those with Drakes dying to Cold/Pierce, or Elves not having much HP, or Dawrves having awful def values.

OAT, I'll take a JohnWayne over a DimWit anyday. Welcome to the forums.

Post by **Kestenvarn** » May 3rd, 2006, 4:40 am

Emoticons shouldn't be used so often when trying to make a point.

Post by **Ken_Oh** » May 3rd, 2006, 5:59 am

That's not the kind of comment I'd expect to hear from someone titled "Art Contributor"

Disto · Post by **Disto** » May 3rd, 2006, 4:41 pm

Ken Oh wrote:That's not the kind of comment I'd expect to hear from someone titled "Art Contributor"

Emoticons are bad art, he can say what he likes.

Post by **Darth Fool** » May 3rd, 2006, 5:10 pm

A truly unique ability: "unique: there can be only one unit with this ability on the map at any given time. If there exists a unit with this ability, attempts to recruit, recall, or create another unit with this ability will either fail or destroy the existing unit."

specific comments:
vampiric aura: has been suggested before. Would make a nice healing ability to give to undead mages if we made it so that undead could not heal normally. I would restrict it to modifying only the melee attack of the adjacent units.

Curse: I am not sure whether this has specifically been discussed before, but I certainly have thought about it previously. Would make a nice feature for soulless to have as an advancement over WC. It would make soulless much more desirable, I think.

Portal: See irc-logs. search for mithril mage. basic idea is implementable with Xan's code (if teleport can be gotten to work again). I would restrict it to the unit must not move and must be on a village. Even then it is likely over-powered except in scenarios designed for it.

Enchant, blind, purge: violates a very fundamental principle of the wesnoth UI. Abilities and magic should be passive, ie, you do not need to activate them or target their effects. To summon the spirit of Miyo: "no."

Train: seems boring.

Flametrooper · Post by **Flametrooper** » May 3rd, 2006, 11:38 pm

I think that the blind-esque idea (temporary stone, can't move/attack/whatever for 1 turn) has been discussed already, though I'm not sure if it's been rejected or not. I think it sounds okay, but as an ability it should be used VERY sparingly. (Cuttlefish's ink could blind, that makes sense...) Maybe it could be renamed to "stun" and give it to high-level heavy-impacters like troll warriors, iron maulers, and ancient woses. Then again those units are pretty powerful as it is...

Casual User · Post by **Casual User** » May 4th, 2006, 3:51 am

My own take on this:

Vampiric aura:
Too complex.

Curse:
Meh. It would seem a little odd. Beside, if you ask me, 'slow' very accurately portrays a curse as it is.

Portal:
Overpowered.

Bless, Enchant and Purge:
It would require changing a basic game concept, namely that attacking is purely against ennemy units. It would also mean complexifying the attack code a lot to allow that. Basically, no.

Train:
What Darth Fool said.

Blind:
Interesting, but attack would have to be max 1 or 2 strikes to avoid overpowering.