Return from the Abyss [SP campaign for 1.12/1.14]

[skeptical_troll]

Hi keeet.
First of all, I really appreciate that you took the time to write such a detailed and thought-out comment, making an UMC campaign can be a hundred hours effort or more and seeing other people discussing the ideas we put forward as authors is the best reward we can get. I'm glad to hear you overall enjoyed the campaign. You raise several valid points, I'll comment on some of them.

• Unit variety: It's true that having only three dunefolk unit types to recruit for the first half of the campaign may feel like a limitation. The main reason was that the horse units didn't fit the underground setting (plus, Khafir is an infantry commander), and I left the healers out to prevent the 'rotate around the healer' gameplay. If new dunefolk infantry units are created in the future, I'll consider adding them in. For the moment, I'm happy with complement those recruits with the different allies. I'm not sure if I agree with you about the little usefulness of Soldiers (mainly because of marksman + good resistances), but that depends pretty much on the playing style.
• Old Castle: you are right, in the cases where the player barely makes it the dialog will sound inconsistent. The best option is probably to reduce the centipede spawning in the last few turns, there is plenty of action anyway in this level and players will appreciate some relief: it sucks to die 2 turns before the end.
• Sewer: it has already been suggested to add a short dialog suggesting to take quick units as companions. It's probably about time that I do it
• AI scripting: it never occured to me that in 'Orcs Strike Back' players can just bypass the walls and approach the fortress from the mountains. I now added the surrounding of the leaders to the area of responsibility for the guards, this should fix it. Reguarding the assassin squad, I must admit I don't fully grasp the details of the implementation, but it is supposed to make the assassins circle around other units to reach the target. What you described sounded more or less like the intended behavior. It should be fairly easy to body-guard Ahlir, I just wanted to add a small side goal for the player to take care of.
• Begol in the last scenario is supposed to be automatically recalled. I realize that it may not be the case if the falcon and Arzeh are both alive, it is now fixed for the next version.
• Writing: giving the sense of a wider world has been one of my priorities, so I'm very happy to hear that this was effectively conveyed in the narration. I thought a few times about ways of improving the characterization of the cult, showing more of its sides and revealing more about their backstory, but didn't find a good one (except adding a text file in the add-on folder that probably nobody ever read ). I feel the campaign is already on the verbose side, and it is in a state in which I'm very careful about modifications, so I don't want to add text if not sparingly. Modifying the dialog between Khafir and Rynwarth is an option, giving a more central role to Nuryo is another one. Same for Hekmal, although I see him more as a tool in the cult's hands. Well, I'll wait for the inspiration if it ever comes

Thanks again for the feedback!

[Octavian-Augusts]

When is part 2 coming ???

[skeptical_troll]

When is part 2 coming ???

Hail, emperor. I'm not sure I understand what you mean, the campaign is finished and part 2 and 3 are out since more than a year. Are you asking about a sequel? Or did you simply post the question on the wrong thread?

[Sudipta]

I've been wanting to play this campaign for a long time and i finally got to it. I'm playing RftA latest version in BfW 1.14.1 on Hard difficulty. I finished part 1. It's been enjoyable this far. Here's my feedback:

Spoiler:

Inglorious Campaign – Rushed east by the southern pass and killed the elves there. Then covered khafir with the others as he ran to the goal. Turn 14/22

Trial of arms – Typo: orgnized attack will crash them -> crush. Fairly easy scenario. Only enemies to give pause are the three giant spiders at the beginning. Leveled up lots of units here and explored the whole cave. Maybe give the trolls more lv 2 units to make it harder? Turn 55/64 kills 93, loss 3, advancements 14

Old Castle – First part of the scenario is really easy. At the start of the second part,I had a miner near the western hole purely by chance so I sealed it off early. But it still turned out to be notoriously difficult. From the eastern side 4-6 enemies spawn every turn and they are so strong.They also flank me from the south and the north so it’s a three way front fight just against the eastern side enemies. The northern holes were relatively simple to seal off but I couldn’t make any progress on the eastern front. Its inconceivable that centipedes can be this tough. I played fair and sqaure till turn 19, at which time I used debug kill to clear the field. I probably could finish it fairly if I made a second attempt but I didn’t want to waste time replaying the same scenario. If I did replay it i would have two miners beside the eastern and southern holes at the beginning of the second part and then seal both immediately. Then I would have to fight less enemies. I kept 250 gold in reserve this time, i'd probably spend a 100 more on recruits and recalls then. Turns 24/24 kills 74 loss 19 advancements 13

Intruders from the surface - Arzeh’s death does not cause defeat. If there is a dwarf left alive then there Is no dialogue after beating boss. The next scenario starts immediately, and there is no interscenario writing or anything so I had no idea what is going on. So I reloaded the last turn and saw that there was a dwarvish guardsmen left alive way behind. I didn't even notice him, anyway I used debug to kill him and then scenario ended correctly. Make it so that the scenario ends if u kill the enemy leader with a dwarf alive. Typo – help me rescuing -> rescue. Turn 21/29 kills 20 losses 2 advancements 1 , recruits remaining 46

Kidnapped shaman – Another easy scenario, easier than the last. If there were a few lv 2 enemies it would have been more fun, right now it’s too easy for hard perhaps. Turns 20/28 kills 43, loss 2 advancements 2, recruits remaining 45

Path to light –The scenario was easy enough until I disovered the friendly orcs in the north. After that it became tough as I was stuck in the middle with naga on one side and ogres on the other. Lost a lot of units including most of the loyal orcs. Turn 76. Kills 94 losses 18 advancements 15. recruits remaining 44

The Old Castle was the hardest scenario by far. I'd like to see a replay of it on hard if someone can provide it. I like the story and the dialogue, its well written and interesting. The second part looks promising.

Spoiler:

Dunefolk + Orcs VS Elves + Humans. Not a matchup i ever expected to see. I hope it will be a great battle

Have a nice day!

[taptap]

The Old Castle was the hardest scenario by far. I'd like to see a replay of it on hard if someone can provide it.

There are several in this thread (even w/o closing any lines of attack). Some versions back though. Mine was from 2016. Dwarves are good and level up heals as well.

[skeptical_troll]

Hi Sudipta, thanks for the feedback and for finding the bugs/typos, I fixed them already.

Make it so that the scenario ends if u kill the enemy leader with a dwarf alive.

Indeed, this was supposed to be a defeat condition (it is now)

The Old Castle was the hardest scenario by far. I'd like to see a replay of it on hard if someone can provide it.

As taptap said, the key is to use and level up dwarves as much as you can. You can find a few replays in the thread, I attach one of a play-test I did on 'hard' some time ago, I think I followed more or less my standard approach (it's on 1.12 though).

As long as they aren't boring, I'm fine with having a few easy scenarios, the campaign has plenty of hard ones I think.
Thanks again, I look forward to hear what you think of the rest.

[Sudipta]

I read taptap’s and inky’s comments on the Old castle scenario. Her insight is spot-on as always, and as for u

Taptap-

Spoiler:

Whoa!! U had so many dwarves and several of them are L2 and many are close to leveling. .. I preferred not giving them xp since they r temporary. This is obviously not your first attempt, u took like every precaution possible, even setting the campfires before the fight. But u played superbly, especially your level up healing was frighteningly good. I’ve never been very good at managing level up heals, it's something i have yet to master
even after 8 years of BfW. Your dwarves cut through the insects with such ease, I had trouble believing these were the same abominations my dunefolk had desperately struggled against. Only 6 losses… Unreal! Turns out closing the holes is nowhere near as important as I thought.

My attempt –

Spoiler:

I gave no xp to the dwarves and all to my dunefolk. I had no idea that the ensuing fight would be so intense, so I just recruited a few fodder dwarf units and recalled some veterans. What’s more I was actually trying to close all the holes. When I started getting swarmed on all sides I hastily brought some reinforcements but still kept a lot of money stored away (it’s actually like a mental ritual of mine. I have a habit of always holding back a portion of my gold and trying to save gold as much as possible so I tend to under recruit often… really puts me in trouble in scenarios like this) I also had trouble killing the armored centipedes and the poisonous lv 3 ones. Then on turn 19 the insects got good rng and killed several of my best veterans and a loyal(looking back, it was bound to happen) I snapped and was so pissed off that i resorted to debug to wipe the bugs out.

I’m gonna replay this scenario after I finish the campaign. I realized that my mistake was holding back 250 gold and being over reliant on the dunefolk. If I go all out with the gold and build a good mix of dwarves and veteran dunefolk the scenario would become much easier. Great scenario this one!

Skeptical_troll - yeah i got the gist of the optimum playstyle from taptap's replay. I really look forward to the rest of the campaign. I'd also like a rematch against rise of the planet of the centipedes sometime

[Octavian-Augusts]

Hail, emperor. I'm not sure I understand what you mean, the campaign is finished and part 2 and 3 are out since more than a year. Are you asking about a sequel? Or did you simply post the question on the wrong thread?
[/quote]

I am asking about a sequel...are you busy with one or working on a plot for one ??? asking for a friend ...Anyway this was an amazing piece if work !! But like all good campaigns, it leaves you wanting more

[Sudipta]

Finished Part 2. The campaign keeps getting better.

Spoiler:

At War – I defended against the elves in the starting camp with khafirs sqaud and against the humans at the river crossing with the blue orcs. The orcish army was almost obliterated, but managed to hold the line until turn 11, when the morning began and I retreated swiftly back to starting camp and made a combined assault on the remaining humans. No dialogue after killing wesnoth general? Not even a generic dying threat? typo – battleground is thirsty of their blood -> for. Turn 27/35 kills 50, loss 5, advancements 7, recruits remaining 41

Orcs Strike Back – typo : understand despite of my -> despite my, orcs don’t wait dawn -> wait until, As usually -> usual, the fate is sending -> fate is. I sent khafirs squad and some orcs to the central area with the villages where the main fighting took place. I sent Gnarks orcs south to intercept the caravans and fight some of the elves By turn 11 the main army of the humans and elves was destroyed and I lost 6 units all lv 3, 4 of them orcs and 2 spearmasters, one of whom had the hero spear. I did not let any of the caravans reach the goal but 3 ships managed to pass before I got to the ford. Turns 29/36 kills 71, loss 6, advancements 11, recruits remaining 38

Mud and Iron- Typo: beside, the region -> besides, hearth-warming -> heartwarming, spies are waiting-> awaiting, The scenario ends immediately if u defeat all enemy leaders first and then rescue the prisoners. When I rescued 6 dunefolk the abrubt ending prevented me from rescuing the rest. So I had to reload back to several turns ago and hold off on killing the last merman leader. Give the player a choice to continue playing the map after rescuing 6, e:g maybe make a goal point for khafir to get to afterwards which would be the final objective of the scenario or something. Turns 37/50, kills 85, losses 8, advancements 12, recruits remaining 27

The occult ridge- This scenario is really cool. First attempt I experimented to see what would happen if I just rushed to the goal, stepping on the magic circle on the way. Nothing happened. Next attempt I recalled 2 lv 3 veterans for killing mirror khafir and 3 lv 1 fodder. Sent them south to fight the enemy while khaifr and farazyan took the western snow pass. All my recalls and recruits died of course but not before killing mirror khafir, while the heroes and the bird casually got to the goal without fighting. Turns 11/21 kills 1, losses 5, advancements 0 recruits remaining 26

The Plague- In this scenario the early finish bonus is calculated using the number of villages left standing at the end, so the bonus is very little. There was 1 village left in my case so I got a bonus of 3 per turn for 6 turns which is 18 gold. Shouldn’t u calculate bonus using the number of villages at the start of scenario instead, since its not our duty to protect the villages? Very interesting scenario concept. Luckily nobody important got infected in my case, but that’s mostly because I avoided the infected enemies where possible. Turns 16/22, kills 18, losses 2, advancements 7 , recruits remaining 24

The forest of the crossing paths- Typo: region was stretching ->stretched, never threaded myself -> treaded, calling for you help -> your. Another great scenario. Managed to break through the river blockade around turn 35. Found the goblins and enlisted their aid, also found every other thing in the forest. Did not bother with making the water walking potion. Made the loyal peasant into a Master Bowman. Turns 50/60 kills 122, losses 11, advancements 14. Recruits remaining 22

Typo: wine and bier -> beer, somebody soon or later -> sooner, everybody bowed his head -> their, handed to weldyin -> weldyn

I really like how the story turned out.I like campaigns where u fight against Wesnoth, glad u put in this twist. Only final part left now

[skeptical_troll]

I am asking about a sequel...are you busy with one or working on a plot for one ??? asking for a friend

Haha, tell your friend that I'm indeed working on something else, but it is not a sequel of RftA, although it is loosely connected to it. I'm not sure when it will be ready though because I'm quite busy with real life too. I may do as I did for RftA, i.e. release it in parts.

@Sudipta

Spoiler:

When I rescued 6 dunefolk the abrubt ending prevented me from rescuing the rest. So I had to reload back to several turns ago and hold off on killing the last merman leader. Give the player a choice to continue playing the map after rescuing 6

Ah, I see the problem there. Probably an option to keep playing until the last explorer is rescued is the best thing here.

First attempt I experimented to see what would happen if I just rushed to the goal, stepping on the magic circle on the way. Nothing happened.

Yeah, I imagined some players would try the rush, that's why the bridge is magical

In this scenario the early finish bonus is calculated using the number of villages left standing at the end, so the bonus is very little.

This is actually intended, to help balancing the next scenario (which is doable with minimum gold) and prevent some players to go for an immediate leader kill in the forest thanks to a generous carryover.

thanks again for the suggestions and for finding the typos!

[Sudipta]

Finished the campaign on Hard BfW 1.14. For starters, let's just say it's one of the top level UMC's of BfW.
Scenario notes for part 3 -

Spoiler:

Familiar Landscapes – Recalled a huge army here. Ignored the undead and just went east, killing all orcs and ogres. kills 57 losses 4, advancements 3. Recruits remaining – 17

On the road to uqraba- Cultists in Uqraba… no surprise there. Poor khafir, having to return to his hometown from the sewers.
The sewer of uqraba – a invalid wml message appeared some turns after the cultists showed “unknown conditional wml clear variable”. I’m growing tired of fighting these stupid cultists. I just defended at the second rusty gate where only one enemy can attack. Downside is I lost 2 veterans while retreating to the tunnel. Kills 107, loss 9, advancements 2

The academy – speaking demoniac languages -> demonic, from his very-> its very. After taking ahlir to the academy, there’s a lua error “repeated endlevel execution.” Fairly easy scenario. Only thing I’ll complain about is the allies just sit there and do nothing. They don’t attack and they don’t get attacked. But in dialogue with Ahlir the militia chief says they suffered casualties from fighting the cultists and I’m like oh really? Turns 19/32 kills 57, losses 2, advancements 7

Assault at the frontier –The scenario is tough until khafir gets to the outpost map. I used the starting gold to recruit as much as possible and then rushed south to the necro. The dunefolk enemies move slowly over the sands, always moving in formation. By the time they reach me, most of the other enemies are dead and Khafirs squad has joined up with faylazurs so its easy killing them. After killing two of the enemy leaders, the dunefolk leader runs away. And then… the falcon speaks saying that he left 60 gold at his post. Turns 22/41 recruits remaining 15

The Die is Cast – This is a final battle worthy of the campaign. First attempt I tried to rush the fortress, intending to finish quickly and was defeated on turn 14 I played recklessly and split my forces too much. By turn 14 half my army was gone, and then Khafir fell. Second and final attempt I took my time, first killing the incoming enemies and the outer enemy sides , and taking control of the armory and afterwards assaulting the fortress. Took a long time. I like the AI tweaks u put in for the defenders as well as the enemy reinforcements. Made the fight a lot more interesting. Turns 35 kills 186, losses 5, advancements 11, recruits remaining 15

Epilogue - Typo : I am the only responsible -> only one , that you must live -> leave

Finished at last! It was wonderful. The story writing is top- notch. I especially loved the epilogue, hats off to u for that. It’s brilliantly written and is a perfect ending for the campaign. I also loved the two dwarves begol and bregor, they’re very amusing. And the character development of khafir was also well done.

As for gameplay the scenarios are well balanced for hard difficulty, with difficult scenarios followed by easier scenarios. The hardest scenario for me was The old castle, and the final scenario being the second, and those are the fights i enjoyed most along with the fights against humans and elves in part 2. Part 3 is a little boring in terms of enemy variety, its mostly fighting the cultists over and over. The final battle was magnificent though, so it more than makes up for it. Part 1 and part 2 had better battles on average while part 3 has better story.

Plot questions -

Spoiler:

There seem to be some plot holes. I'd like it if u can offer me your explanation for these in a PM perhaps?
1. The dwarves are fighting and endless war with some unknown enemy who u said was a mage looking for the magic stone artifacts. It's never mentioned again after the old castle so i'm wondering does this guy have any connection with the cultists?
2. What happened to the cultists in Wesnoth? Did they completely take over or were they defeated by the rebels?
3. Does the war between elves and dunefolk continue or is it over for good?

Well that’s it for me. I hope my feedback was helpful. Congratulations on a great campaign and best of luck for your next project.

[skeptical_troll]

Thanks for the playing the campaign and for all the feedback and typos/bugs hunting, it was really useful. I'm very glad that you enjoyed it!

on part 3:

Only thing I’ll complain about is the allies just sit there and do nothing. They don’t attack and they don’t get attacked. But in dialogue with Ahlir the militia chief says they suffered casualties from fighting the cultists and I’m like oh really?

The practical reason behind the passive militia is that those units are recallable in the next scenario, so I don't want them to suicide here. When the chief mentions the casualties he's referring to events right before Khafir's and Othrondor's intervention

Part 3 is a little boring in terms of enemy variety, its mostly fighting the cultists over and over.

The lack of enemy variety in part 3 (well, last 4 scenarios to be precise, but also the last 2 of part 2) is indeed something I'm not totally happy about, however these scenarios are strongly story-driven and I can't think of consistent ways of introducing different enemies. Increasing the variety of units within the cult is the best option, and I already tried to do it by adding the shadow mages, the war dogs and the weird dunefolk-outlaws hybrids in the last battle. I will keep my eyes open if I find suitable units to borrow from other UMCs.

Coming to your plot questions:

Spoiler:

a few back-stories within the campaign are open-ended. This is partly because I wanted to give the sense of a larger, eventful world, partly because I had plans to elaborate on some of them in other campaigns, which may or may not be finished depending on how inspired I feel and how much time I'll manage to spend on them. In my head-lore, these are the answers to your questions:

1. There is indeed a connection between the wizard and the cultists, in that the former is one of the theorists and promoters behind the cult's ideology. Even if there isn't an explicit alliance between them, they pursue analogous goals and they often collaborate against common enemies.
2. The cultists were successful in pervading Wesnoth's society in depth, so it won't be possible for the rebels to defeat them and restore Wesnoth to what it was before in a short time. They'll rather try to join their forces and organize themselves outside of the borders, to at least guarantee their own safety.
3. I'd say that northern elves wouldn't have any interest in pursuing further retaliation. Reljab's defeat already stopped the dunefolk's ambition of expanding their trading routes in that direction, so the two factions will likely stay apart for a while. The reason they may clash again is that elves sealed the alliance with Wesnoth, which is in turn strongly influenced by the cultists, enemies of Othrondor. They already pissed off the Northern Alliance by kidnapping Falaweè, so you can imagine that the overall situation is quite tense.

[Sudipta]

The practical reason behind the passive militia is that those units are recallable in the next scenario, so I don't want them to suicide here. When the chief mentions the casualties he's referring to events right before Khafir's and Othrondor's intervention

Hmm, i figured it would be something like that. But it's a little strange that they do nothing while a big battle is going on right at their doorstep. If they had been fighting cultists before khafirs arrival, then that's all the more reason to team up with khafir against the cultists, making use of the opportunity. Maybe u could give the player control of the militia as a second side and put some enemy units near the academy during start of scenario? That would make the militia more actively involved in the fight. Food for thought.

The lack of enemy variety in part 3 (well, last 4 scenarios to be precise, but also the last 2 of part 2) is indeed something I'm not totally happy about, however these scenarios are strongly story-driven and I can't think of consistent ways of introducing different enemies. Increasing the variety of units within the cult is the best option, and I already tried to do it by adding the shadow mages, the war dogs and the weird dunefolk-outlaws hybrids in the last battle. I will keep my eyes open if I find suitable units to borrow from other UMCs.

U could maybe introduce some undead enemies somewhere. The cult has used undead before, but only to transform dying soldiers into walking corpses. For example - Maybe one of the officers of the cult in uqraba is a necromancer with the power to summon some decent undead units ? Perhaps during the sewer scenario, they get chased by the minions of a cultist necromancer who had been hiding in the sewer underground the city ? The lore could be that perhaps the cult doesn't prefer necromancy but wont hesitate to resort to it when their existence is at stake and so they employ undead as a last ditch effort to defend themselves. It's also how they are able to carry out the most rough and dangerous missions with success. It felt weird to me that a bunch of thugs are able to complete missions that the wesnoth army hesitates to undertake... so maybe necromancy is like their secret trump card

a few back-stories within the campaign are open-ended. This is partly because I wanted to give the sense of a larger, eventful world, partly because I had plans to elaborate on some of them in other campaigns, which may or may not be finished depending on how inspired I feel and how much time I'll manage to spend on them.

You certainly did a good job at creating that sense of multiple events going on. I for one was intrigued by all the different factions fighting one another.
I'll be hoping that inspiration comes to u in abundance

[Gofio]

I got an error loading "Audience with the king",

Unknown tile in map: (Ur^Prg) 'Ur^Prg'

I'm playing with 1.14.2 (Ubuntu).

Campaign version 1.1.4

Update: If I install UMC_Terrain_Pack I get (Ubr^Prg) 'Urb^Prg' instead, may I missing another pack or era?

[skeptical_troll]

Thanks for notifying this, I didn't realize that with the new Wesnoth version some of the terrain codes changed. It should be fixed now, and there is no need for any other pack, just update the campaign.