The Era of Myths 5.19.0

[Turuk]

If, on the main page of the game, you click add-ons, you'll see the add-on server come up. On the list, if you sort it by name, it will be under The Era of Myths.

A much easier way is to sort it by downloads, as it is the second most downloaded add-on.

[JW]

Hey....is the EOM version the same on 1.5.x as it is on 1.4.x? If so I've seen some blatant problems with unit balancing in the last couple of days that I'm pretty concerned with....some things that I thought were relatively fine when I left....I'll wait on describing what I'm talking about in case the versions are different. Also, I'm going to have to check out the svn, because things are looking odd to me....

[Velensk]

I didn't think there was a version of EoM on 1.5, if there is, then I didn't put it up there.

[JW]

Okay, well I looked at the svn and it looks like no significant changes have been made in at least the last 5 weeks...so I'm going to assume that the version online has all the same unit stats as the svn.

Suggestions:
decrease cost of blackfur from 22 to 17
make the man-cub less spammable somehow

increase leopard shifter's melee from 6-3 back to 7-3

remove cold attack from wind servant
remove marksman from wind servant
decrease cost of unicorn by 1

These are just some starters.

[Velensk]

JW I havn't had a chance to work on the SVN version, infact I still havn't figured out how to acsess it. However in responce to your suggestions.

Blackfurs are far to strong to cost 17, at night when backstabbing they do 12-3 damage, 15-3 if strong. In combination with stalkers they work as a mage unit in some ways, but are faster, tougher, and have a better move type. Though they should only cost 21 not 22 in that version.

Man cubs cost 15, that isn't that spammable.

Leopards were to strong when their melee was high, they were already a very strong defender (40hp and high forest defence) with a ranged attack that had the potential to be decent and fast, all for 17 gold. It didn't need to have a higher melee attack.

The cold attack and marksmanship on the wind servent serve a purpose, explain why you want them removed.

What is wrong with unicorns costing 19?

[AI]

JW I havn't had a chance to work on the SVN version, infact I still havn't figured out how to acsess it.

I'm not very familiar with GUI-based svn clients, but I assume you're not very familiar with the console. A good cross-platform GUI-based svn client is RapidSVN.

I suggest you join us on IRC sometime so we can help you set everything up.

[JW]

JW I havn't had a chance to work on the SVN version, infact I still havn't figured out how to acsess it. However in responce to your suggestions.

Blackfurs are far to strong to cost 17, at night when backstabbing they do 12-3 damage, 15-3 if strong. In combination with stalkers they work as a mage unit in some ways, but are faster, tougher, and have a better move type. Though they should only cost 21 not 22 in that version.

The blackfur is a thief that costs 9g more. They have 5-3 melee, not 6-3.

Man cubs cost 15, that isn't that spammable.

In the latest version they are 14g with 12 melee and 16 ranged. Compared to every other unit in the faction they are the best for their cost. The problem is probably with the other units.

Leopards were to strong when their melee was high, they were already a very strong defender (40hp and high forest defence) with a ranged attack that had the potential to be decent and fast, all for 17 gold. It didn't need to have a higher melee attack.

The leopards are neutral and so do not gain additional damage from TOD. Guards are also 6-3, but have more ranged damage and cost 3g less. This makes no sense and would lead to a person never recruiting leopards.

The cold attack and marksmanship on the wind servent serve a purpose, explain why you want them removed.

The unit was fine as it was when it had only a 4-3 impact ranged. It is a resilient lvl 0 scout unit. It is now a spammable powerhouse of damage that requires no upkeep and grants no xp. It is insane. Whatever purpose the two features serve they should be served another way.

What is wrong with unicorns costing 19?

It isn't worth that much. I haven't seen a single one recruited. Reduction by 1g is just to get it used more in MP. The real problems may be the OP of other units.

[Velensk]

Blackfur: My numbers are accurate theives do 4-3 base damage: 5*2*.25=12 6*2*.25=15. Blackfur are not super fragile, blackfur have nightstalk: and most importantly: Black fur are in a different faction, and fill a diffrent roll.

Man-cub: just checked and you're correct: that is on the list of changes I already had.

Leapards: If you havn't seen them recruited recently, then that is purely you: every other therian player I've seen use them: If they did 7-3 damage at day, then guards would only exceed them in damage at day when the guard was strong. A non-strong guard would do less damage than a strong cat at all times of day. If you can't see why they'd be recruited: consiter that they are faster, tougher, and therians will often find themselves defending against enemies at night. Infact, the reason that I reduced their damage is that there was little reason to recruit guards next to them: this being said: one thing I'm consitering changing, is moving the guards damage to 9-2. Which if nothing else will fix the non-strong gaurds not getting much more damage at day problem.

Wind Servent: First of all, don't act like marksmanship gives them high damage potential, what it means is that they can reliably do about 8-10 damage per hex which is decent but not great. However in balancing I discovered that elementals have one effective archer, and that effective archer is was relativly useless against high defence oppoenents. In particular, elementals had absolutly no effective way of removing vinebeasts in forests or seekers in forests. The marksmanship gives them a way of doing that, and even then it isn't that efficent just effective (seeker counter hurts wind). Unicorns could also work on seekers, but it was kind of risky. Now, what might make sense, is if I made them lvl 1, because they do effectivly have that lvl of power as long as their opponent isn't useing arcane on them, and they cost like it too.

If you've never seen the unicorn used in mp, then I don't know what to tell you. You can ask other people who've played with elementals in multiplayer (try Espron, F8, or any of the tourny players who did well), and I think they'll tell you they use them. You need unicorns to act as mobile healers for your wind servents, and to provide good melee damage at times. They are a mainstay of elemental vs vampire, and elemental vs therian (best unit for takeking out monks), they do decently against celestials who havn't gone to hard on legionaries. I'm not opposed to a decrease in price, but I dont' see the need, and if that's your experiance then it confilcts with mine.

EDIT: A note: I will not be at home for a long time after this, so It may take me awhile to get back to you on any reply.

[JW]

Blackfur: My numbers are accurate theives do 4-3 base damage: 5*2*.25=12 6*2*.25=15. Blackfur are not super fragile, blackfur have nightstalk: and most importantly: Black fur are in a different faction, and fill a diffrent roll.

Silly me, I forgot thieves were 4-3, not 5-3. Regardless I still posit that Blackfurs are overpriced:

Thief/Blackfur
cost: 13/22
hp: 24/33
mp: 6/5
xp: 20/29
dmg: 4-3/5-3
Blackfur has better resists, but worse defense. In forest, Blackfur's best terrain, the Thief will be hit 25% less, negating the additional damage caused by its negative resistancies (other than -30 %blade). Elsewhere the thief is hit even less compared to the Blackfur: hills -40%, plains -50%. The thief has higher costs to move over some terrain compared to the blackfur, but it also has +1mp.

The real differences are the thief has 9 less hp, -1 dmg per strike, 9 less xp to level, and costs 9g less than blackfur. Is it worth the differences? And no, single unit comparisons are not the only way to do things, so if you're really worried about the blackfur then I suggest increasing the price of the skirmisher by 1 as well so that having the capability to backstab is more pricey.

Also, I'm not sold don why almost all units are getting 2 damage types in 1 range.....will-o-wisp, dahund cub, stalker (which needs it IMO)....continue for other factions who did not have 2 damage types before.

Leapards: If you havn't seen them recruited recently, then that is purely you: every other therian player I've seen use them: If they did 7-3 damage at day, then guards would only exceed them in damage at day when the guard was strong. A non-strong guard would do less damage than a strong cat at all times of day. If you can't see why they'd be recruited: consiter that they are faster, tougher, and therians will often find themselves defending against enemies at night. Infact, the reason that I reduced their damage is that there was little reason to recruit guards next to them: this being said: one thing I'm consitering changing, is moving the guards damage to 9-2. Which if nothing else will fix the non-strong gaurds not getting much more damage at day problem.

Is that a problem? Up the cost of the jaguar if you have to, but compare it to an elvish fighter (1-on-1 again I know....) +3g, same movetype essentially, less melee and ranged, all for +1 move? Makes no sense. Again, it does </= damage than guards at all times except melee at night. I'm rushing and doing 1v1 comparisons only to put my thoughts down. I'll go over concepts more in depth when I have the time.

Wind Servent: First of all, don't act like marksmanship gives them high damage potential, what it means is that they can reliably do about 8-10 damage per hex which is decent but not great. However in balancing I discovered that elementals have one effective archer, and that effective archer is was relativly useless against high defence oppoenents. In particular, elementals had absolutly no effective way of removing vinebeasts in forests or seekers in forests. The marksmanship gives them a way of doing that, and even then it isn't that efficent just effective (seeker counter hurts wind). Unicorns could also work on seekers, but it was kind of risky. Now, what might make sense, is if I made them lvl 1, because they do effectivly have that lvl of power as long as their opponent isn't useing arcane on them, and they cost like it too.

I don't think the lvl should change, or the unit's previous intended function. It is a cheap scout unit like the bat. I would actually be in favor of giving it +1 moves (to 7) if that's what it takes to remove the damage and marksman again. As for high defence opponents....what about ading a weapon special to the vine beast that allows it to always hit at 50% on offence? Maybe for the rock golem instead? Adding marksman to lvl 0 units has already been done....in the warg faction. Adding marksman ranged to scouts has already been done....in the drakes. Maybe make vine beast's ranged magical? C'mon, let's try to be more original than just adding more damage types to everything and marksman in every faction. (okay, so magical wouldn't be original either, but AFAIK adding it to the lesser attack of a unit would be)

If you've never seen the unicorn used in mp, then I don't know what to tell you. You can ask other people who've played with elementals in multiplayer (try Espron, F8, or any of the tourny players who did well), and I think they'll tell you they use them. You need unicorns to act as mobile healers for your wind servents, and to provide good melee damage at times. They are a mainstay of elemental vs vampire, and elemental vs therian (best unit for takeking out monks), they do decently against celestials who havn't gone to hard on legionaries. I'm not opposed to a decrease in price, but I dont' see the need, and if that's your experiance then it confilcts with mine.

Against Vamps I can see it. Pierce is quite nice for them. I think the unit as a whole ccould use some retooling, so I'll pass on this for now.

EDIT: A note: I will not be at home for a long time after this, so It may take me awhile to get back to you on any reply.

NP. Also I'm glad to see a change for the man-cub was intended.

ps, I'm not sold on the will-o-wisp, dahund, or blackfur units at the moment.
pps, the therian guard has firststrike, the cat does not.
ppps, why does the animated rock have a ranged attack? He is uber-resistant with pretty good hp and he will retal on any ranged unit as well? Maybe that's what could change about the unicorn - it's lvl 2 has a ranged attack, a weak one could be given to the lvl 1 as well perhaps. 6-1 arcane magical perhaps?
pppps, what about giving the vine beast a thorns, defense only attack that deals like 3-2 pierce damage at 90% hit on melee? Unusable on offense, it would represent getting entangled with the creature. Just a thought, not sure if it's a good one.

[artekfrost]

is there any change around the margoyle AMLA it only needs 8xp to AMLA and its XP needed doesnt rise evr time it AMLA it makes them almost impossible to kill

[Velensk]

is there any change around the margoyle AMLA it only needs 8xp to AMLA and its XP needed doesnt rise evr time it AMLA it makes them almost impossible to kill

If it needs 8 xp, you must be playing with something like 30% xp or something, but yes, that will be fixed when I fix the AMLA which is supposed to increase xp requirement a small amount.

@JW: I'm positive that the blackfur costs 21 in the latest version, and I told you they play a diffrent role than the theif. The theif is a primary damage dealer for the knalgans. For the warg, the blackfur is for dealing lots of damage from one hex, also for the pychological factor. You keep dismissing nightstalk, but it a definate factor in the unit. Also, the blackfur is on a faction where it is easier to use its backstab. It costs more than a theif, because it's supposed to be a rare specialist, it dosn't die nearly as easily and because nightstalk is usefull. As it is, I'm not worried about it, when first created it as a more powerful unit with a higher cost there was problems, so I reduced its power and cost and I havn't had those kinds of problems since. It's the type of unit that isn't efficent but it's effective (and fun IMO) -simular to the mage-

Leopards: again diffrence of role, you missed the extra 6 hp somehow. Leopards currently play the roll of mobile meat sheilds, and are pretty good at it even when not in woods (in the woods they are phenominal). Again this is something that has been shown in practical play. Now, it may be that the role needs re-evaulation, but if not I'm not going to make them a mobile tank that can do good damage as well.

Personlay I've never quite been happy with the way the therians play, it can be quite effective and efficent, but at the same time I've never found it fun, and I know a number of other people who agree.

Wind servents: In this case I can't begin to explain to you how wrong you are. Wind servents did not play the roll as cheap scouts. Even back when you were in charge that wasn't the case. Remember how I wanted to focus on elementals, well one of the big reasons elementals were worthwhile was because they had wind servents which always were a great unit. They always made it so that elementals had mobility and flexability and not a great deal of power. Which is good because elemental units are generaly not cost efficent (there are exceptions)
-Magic on the vine beasts ranged attack? You've got to be kidding. I'm not saying it would be pointless, but as a method of fortbusting it would be incredibly ineffective. I choose the wind servent because it was a unit that was used against all foes, and because even under max conditions it does not have a high damage potential per servent so the fact that it will hit frequently isn't as much of a problem.
-Adding magic/marksman it to a lesser attack on a unit does not solve the primary problem, you arn't going to try to unroot a seeker or a vine beast from a forest by running up to it with your AR or VB and tossing a stone or some thornss at it unless I rework the attacks an extensive amount. I'm not doing this for originality I'm doing this for effect. Also the wind servent is not a scout, nor ever was it IMO, it has always been primaraly a massable/mobile archer. If you had wanted it to be a scout, then it was never as clear to me with only 6 move back when there were no traits. Certainly it could be used as one, but I'd always figured you'd given that role to the unicorn.
- If you didn't intend them to fill the role I always used them for, then how did you play elementals? In general they were horrible at attacking. They had fire elementals that costed 16 but had a 10-2 impact and 4-4 fire attack without being exceptionaly hard to kill, unicorns were always risky for offence, the vine beast was decent, but had a major weakness to mage types, the pupets were ok, but they had a lvl 0s offence cababilities. Elementals are decent at defending, but the right tools could pry them out without much trouble, and they lacked a good capability to attack. The way I did it was by recruiting many wind servents, a couple other units depending on my faction, and a unicorn or two, useing them to outmonuver my enemy and attack a smaller amount of enemies with a mass.

Other points: ............... would you prefer to see the naga, fire-sprit, and wose back. With the exception of the blackfur/naga the units were just meant to take old gameplay rolls and put them in a form that could be made to make sense. Blackfurs are very fun to play with, next time you see F8 on the server, as him for a game and you can talk it over then.

I'm aware of the guards first stike. It only makes a diffrence when you can kill the enemy with your attack before he can finish his.

The animate rock has a ranged attack for much the same reason a guard does. It means they arn't competly defenceless against ranged units, and that they can do damage to melee only units that attack them, without takeing return. Animated rocks do have great resistances (except against arcane), however the diffrence between their base 30(or 31?) hp, and the guardsmens 42 is significant. Gaurds also get better defence on villages and are swifter. The end result is that rocks act like a cheaper, slightly less durable/slower guardsman that can be used offensively, which is IMO a good role for it. Before when it didn't have it, it always just felt a little ineffective at defending against ranged units (espeicaly monks, apprentices, blood apprentices, light spirits [as a note, light spirit cost is slated for an increase])

There is a problem with your thorns idea. How much of the time would you rather use a 3-2 90% hit counter attack over a 5-4 ordinary counter? Maybe if it slowed the enemy down it might be worthwhile, but even then I'm missing a major part of the why. Vine beasts are not an ineffective or inefficent unit.

[krotop]

Personlay I've never quite been happy with the way the therians play, it can be quite effective and efficent, but at the same time I've never found it fun, and I know a number of other people who agree.

Their concept isn't going far enough in my humble opinion. That's why, although they're a good faction (not just in power, they're rather polished and balanced) they lack just a little bit of "spice". They're shifters ? I'd say make them shift. You expressed some interest in the shifty unstable elemental from Meloen's, eventually that could inspire you some fun mechanics for the Therians. Well, that's just a suggestion

[JW]

Velensk, your tone was a little condescending and you held possibilities I conjured up as pure suggestions for inclusion. I suggest you bring it down a notch.

As for the wind servants, if they were already your main attackers before the buff, why did they need them? I could pull 2 or 3 quotes implying that you thought they were fantastic before.....so you just wanted a spam toy? Because that's what they've become. Playing Elementals now involves no thinking.

And your Rock Golem comparisons are weak. It isn't meant to be a guardsman, it's meant more to be an HI. The difference is he has better resists and less damage. btw, he's cheaper and doesn't have negative resists. He doesn't need a ranged attack. Ever try to take him on with piercing archers? Probably not.

Anyway, I could go back and forth on this, but it's unnecessary.

ps, what was wrong with the fire sprite? Unless I'm mistaken you just changed the image, gave it an extra ranged attack, gave it a drain melee, gave it berserk resists and renamed it. Also, I thought the Wose kinda fit, seeing as how Warg live in the forests. It kinda tied the default and EOM together a little more, and with it you wouldnt need that silly bear(?). The nagas were placeholder, and they still don't have a good water village holder.

pps,

I'm aware of the guards first stike. It only makes a diffrence when you can kill the enemy with your attack before he can finish his.

Give it to the jaguar then too. (not serious) -- as for the jaguar role I can live with it I suppose. I'd have to seehow it plays though, because I would, personally, rather spam the cheaper, harder hitting guard than the jaguar. (people can retreat at bad times of day instead of staying to take hits you know...)

ppps, you may not have been interested in the EOM when the Elementals were included, but they were hacked together from an **era** that had, I think, 6 different factions. They had complete art for 2 levels of each recruit. The brazier and wisp? They were two different units. I merged them, and all the other factions, into a single faction because the EOM needed factions, and the Elementals had art and seemed neat. They didn't really fit 100%, and still really don't, but they were added anyway. As for playstyle, I had to hack together something that even resembled a faction. There were some problems with that as you can imagine. I figured the Elementals could play a little like Loyalists: you have a different tool for every situation. For forest defense and a quick gap filler you had the VB. For sturdy defenses you had the Rock. For attacks you had the Brazier. Water was taken, your scout was a bat-like unit (but resists instead of drain....oh yeah, did you know the wind servant has good resists?), and then you had the unicorn for spot-finishing duty and a mobile healer.

It may not be the best playstyle for a faction. I grant you that. But the result of the ultra-spammable lvl 0 is just ridiculous. They're worse than the Devlings. At least the Devlings have poor resists and most of them cant fly. None of them have marksman or two types of attacks in the same range either.

Anyway, I've given an education of the Elemental history that I hope is sufficient. Again, I could go on and on, but what's the point if this doesn't go through?

[Velensk]

Velensk, your tone was a little condescending and you held possibilities I conjured up as pure suggestions for inclusion. I suggest you bring it down a notch.

As for the wind servants, if they were already your main attackers before the buff, why did they need them? I could pull 2 or 3 quotes implying that you thought they were fantastic before.....so you just wanted a spam toy? Because that's what they've become. Playing Elementals now involves no thinking.

And your Rock Golem comparisons are weak. It isn't meant to be a guardsman, it's meant more to be an HI. The difference is he has better resists and less damage. btw, he's cheaper and doesn't have negative resists. He doesn't need a ranged attack. Ever try to take him on with piercing archers? Probably not.

Anyway, I could go back and forth on this, but it's unnecessary.

ps, what was wrong with the fire sprite? Unless I'm mistaken you just changed the image, gave it an extra ranged attack, gave it a drain melee, gave it berserk resists and renamed it. Also, I thought the Wose kinda fit, seeing as how Warg live in the forests. It kinda tied the default and EOM together a little more, and with it you wouldnt need that silly bear(?). The nagas were placeholder, and they still don't have a good water village holder.

pps,

I'm aware of the guards first stike. It only makes a diffrence when you can kill the enemy with your attack before he can finish his.

Give it to the jaguar then too. (not serious) -- as for the jaguar role I can live with it I suppose. I'd have to seehow it plays though, because I would, personally, rather spam the cheaper, harder hitting guard than the jaguar. (people can retreat at bad times of day instead of staying to take hits you know...)

ppps, you may not have been interested in the EOM when the Elementals were included, but they were hacked together from an **era** that had, I think, 6 different factions. They had complete art for 2 levels of each recruit. The brazier and wisp? They were two different units. I merged them, and all the other factions, into a single faction because the EOM needed factions, and the Elementals had art and seemed neat. They didn't really fit 100%, and still really don't, but they were added anyway. As for playstyle, I had to hack together something that even resembled a faction. There were some problems with that as you can imagine. I figured the Elementals could play a little like Loyalists: you have a different tool for every situation. For forest defense and a quick gap filler you had the VB. For sturdy defenses you had the Rock. For attacks you had the Brazier. Water was taken, your scout was a bat-like unit (but resists instead of drain....oh yeah, did you know the wind servant has good resists?), and then you had the unicorn for spot-finishing duty and a mobile healer.

It may not be the best playstyle for a faction. I grant you that. But the result of the ultra-spammable lvl 0 is just ridiculous. They're worse than the Devlings. At least the Devlings have poor resists and most of them cant fly. None of them have marksman or two types of attacks in the same range either.

Anyway, I've given an education of the Elemental history that I hope is sufficient. Again, I could go on and on, but what's the point if this doesn't go through?

I was not trying to be condencending, though I was a bit annoyed about the wind servent issue. As it is keep it down yourself, of course I know that the wind servent has good resistances, and I have played many games with animated rocks before making that decision. To adress points

Wind Servent: Having read your history, I can see what you are saying, but I'm telling you that in practice it didn't work very well. dyour refrence I'll give you a history of the wind servent since I got it. Origionaly it was a unit with a 4-3 cold attack at a cost of 11, and yes, it had a cold attack when I got it. I remember because you asked me about it when I was a tester because you said you were worried about it's attack value against drakes, and I told you not to worry about it. You might be able to find this in your old mail if you havn't cleared it out. Now as I've playtested Elementals I realised quite quickly that there was problems with their style against an opponent who knows what he is doing. The trick I described worked pretty well against an average oppoenent I faced, but when F8 and a couple others played the Era with me some more, we concluded that the elementals were weak, and in particular they had no good way of defeating a fortified position. So I made the wind servent a marksman and increased it's price. This worked well except for one instance when I utterly trashed someone playing elementals as windsong, because I had realised that Elementals had no method of dealing with seekers. Unicorns and vine beasts at day had a chance of doing something, but in cost and efficeny it didn't work out. Wind servents could hurt them, but not without being hurt themselves, and not for great amounts of damage. So I gave them their impact attack back. Later on it was noted that wind servents had no use for Ruby, so I made them a special ruby trait that decreased their hp, but increase their ranged attack. I probably should have increased their price again because they were already good for their cost but it didn't occur to me. -Reading back over that account, I feel I got some details in the wrong order, but I can't figure out which-. Anyway I hope this explains why they are in thier current state. As for claims that they make playing elementals mindless, that is much like saying that playing northerners is mindless because you mainly recruit many cheap efficent grunts. A good point you have is that they don't have a upkeep, this could be fixed by increasing their level.

If you intended rocks to play like heavy infantry, then it's never been clear to me. Admittedly I don't have much use for heavy infantry, but that is because I find them to slow/expensive to be efficent, and not good enough at defending to be worthwhile for that either. Not to offend, but compareing rocks to heavy infantry seems weaker than compareing them to guardsmen, both get low defence when not in moutains/hills, both are neutral, both have great resistances but low damage, and both are slow. The only simularities between heavy infantry and rocks, are that they are both slow, they both have great resistances, and they both do impact damage.
I'll admit that rocks as they were, were better than heavy infantry, however they always fell into a defenders roll as it's kind of hard to be an effective offender with 6-3 melee. You may have intended them to play like heavy infantry, but they always played more like guardsmen whenever I used them, and that wasn't just a desision I made shortly after you left, I played many games with them before decideing that, includeing games with piercing archers. It's not like a 6-1 attack is even that great.

The fire spirit didn't fit, and that isn't a very good description of what I did. What I did was make it a ranged ghost, and increased its price, I also rethemed it to fit a little better. If you look at the old firesprite stats you'll see the diffences. Wisps also work fine for holding water villages. Wose did fit... sorta. I'm not sure that a bear-like warg fits that much better, but I find that it plays allot better with the warg play style simply because it is not very slow. I don't think that tieing default to Default in that way is nessisary, and I don't think that the bear is any sillier than the tree was.

As for the cats, I understand that prefrence, I find that the way that works better varies with enemy to enemy.

[JW]

Origionaly it was a unit with a 4-3 cold attack at a cost of 11, and yes, it had a cold attack when I got it.

Hmm...that does seem right, though it might have been a recent change before I handed it over. I remember it had an Impact attack which I changed because it destroyed Undead too easily. Undead were in the EOM for a time (in a modified state), so it was a very pertinent issue until they were removed.

but when F8 and a couple others played the Era with me some more, we concluded that the elementals were weak, and in particular they had no good way of defeating a fortified position. So I made the wind servent a marksman and increased it's price.

I guess this is the problem I have. Okay, so the Elementals had a problem. Instead of buffing other units you go straight to the Wind Servant. Why not buff the Fire Brazier? The VB? The WS seems like a very odd choice for the unit to buff.

This worked well except for one instance when I utterly trashed someone playing elementals as windsong, because I had realised that Elementals had no method of dealing with seekers.

Again,this seems like a problem you may yhave addressed from the Windsong side instead of the Elemental side. Forgive me if I am oversimplifying, but it seems like you are focusing too much on buffing Elementals when they have a problem, and specifically just buffing one unit. This seems lilke an odd approach.

Unicorns and vine beasts at day had a chance of doing something, but in cost and efficeny it didn't work out. Wind servents could hurt them, but not without being hurt themselves, and not for great amounts of damage. So I gave them their impact attack back.

Okay, so you note as well that the WS did at least used to have an Impact attack.

Later on it was noted that wind servents had no use for Ruby, so I made them a special ruby trait that decreased their hp, but increase their ranged attack.

Hmm....this is something that does sound like a bug. Although, Adepts get Strong, don't they? They don't have a use for it (other than the +1 hp) until they level, correct? I suppose it wouldn't have been an issue if you left it.

I probably should have increased their price again because they were already good for their cost but it didn't occur to me. -Reading back over that account, I feel I got some details in the wrong order, but I can't figure out which-. Anyway I hope this explains why they are in thier current state.

It explains it to a degree, but I am still unsatisfied with the current state.

As for claims that they make playing elementals mindless, that is much like saying that playing northerners is mindless because you mainly recruit many cheap efficent grunts. A good point you have is that they don't have a upkeep, this could be fixed by increasing their level.

That is one out I suppose, but I would rather see other changes made, specifically to make the VB more useful (he gets a little destroyed outside of forest for his cost) and the FB a little more versatile perhaps, or even the Unicorn.

If you intended rocks to play like heavy infantry, then it's never been clear to me. Admittedly I don't have much use for heavy infantry, but that is because I find them to slow/expensive to be efficent, and not good enough at defending to be worthwhile for that either.

lol, I totally agree actually - that's why I made it so the Rock was not weak to any attacks and was cheaper. Because of these benefits I made it less damaging. Perhaps it does make it more like the defensive Guard.....but that doesn't mean he has to get a ranged attack like him......

Not to offend, but compareing rocks to heavy infantry seems weaker than compareing them to guardsmen, both get low defence when not in moutains/hills, both are neutral, both have great resistances but low damage, and both are slow. The only simularities between heavy infantry and rocks, are that they are both slow, they both have great resistances, and they both do impact damage.

And comparing them to Guards is weak because they didn't have a ranged attack and used impact instead of pierce. I was telling you the base of what gave me the idea for the stats and how they should play. Whether this came through in application of course is questionable since I didn't really focus on the Elementals after their creation. There was one time I did, but it was only to redo the unit tree system (removing the Mystic Puppet, making Rocks recruitable; the fire units were also swapped in level at some point). After that I didn't really do any work on them hence why I was so glad when you chose them as your faction to balance when you agreed to become an EOM playtester. I was hoping to get a better perspective from the Elemental point of view with some ideas for where they were too weak and too strong, and some ideas for how to remedy those areas.

I'll admit that rocks as they were, were better than heavy infantry, however they always fell into a defenders roll as it's kind of hard to be an effective offender with 6-3 melee. You may have intended them to play like heavy infantry, but they always played more like guardsmen whenever I used them, and that wasn't just a desision I made shortly after you left, I played many games with them before decideing that, includeing games with piercing archers. It's not like a 6-1 attack is even that great.

It may not be great, but why is it even necessary? The unit takes 2-4 from even an Elven Archer? (he has 60% pierce, right? or is it 50% ...sorry I could look it up but am too in typing mode...) The only units that can really stick it to him have Arcane attacks, like you said, the Monk. Well....what about the new Fire Sprite with its cheapo arcane attack? This is just one reason I think adding multiple damage types to units is something that should be avoided unless necessary. It just gives units a ton more flexibility where they may not have needed it.

The fire spirit didn't fit, and that isn't a very good description of what I did. What I did was make it a ranged ghost, and increased its price, I also rethemed it to fit a little better.

Hmm...IIRC the Wisp costs 17 to the Ghosts 20, the Wisp drains 3 (7-1) where the Ghost drains 6 (4-3), but the Wisp has no penalty over water (but 1 less movement?), awesome defense in forest, 2 superb ranged attacks (20 dmg compared to 9), and those ranged attack are in extremely useful damage types. Now, I'm not saying the unit is imbalanced on its face...but it surely is a lot more useful than the Ghost, if that's what you intended it to be.

If you look at the old firesprite stats you'll see the diffences. Wisps also work fine for holding water villages. Wose did fit... sorta. I'm not sure that a bear-like warg fits that much better, but I find that it plays allot better with the warg play style simply because it is not very slow. I don't think that tieing default to Default in that way is nessisary, and I don't think that the bear is any sillier than the tree was.

You're right, it's not necessary, but I thought it was kinda neat. And yes, the water village is important...hmm...I have an interesting idea actually.

Anyway, I guess my main point still remains that I think they way the Elementals have shaped has been too overly focused on the super-utility of one unit. I would rather see the usefulness spread out more among the other units, that's all.