is "fast" a bonus or malus ?

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Lorbi
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is "fast" a bonus or malus ?

Post by Lorbi »

I often get fast units and hate it that they got -10% HP.
Especially on small maps to me this seems to be more a malus than a bonus.
All other abilities are definitly positive. The most played MP maps are not big enough imho to get the advantage out of the 1mp you have more for the -10% hp.

Your opinion?

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Faello
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Post by Faello »

Seconded, I don't like units with fast ability especially when I'm buying units that are frail from the default ( like for ex. elven archer - with fast ability he has only 26hp ), in campaigns I prefer to level up units without this abilty too
- I think that -10% hp handicap is too much for this one hex more especially that often you're in pitched battles and evey hp point counts - speed - not really.
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Post by theotherhiveking »

Seconded too, fast is a negative trait, it doesn't help in any way.
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Elvish Scientist
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Post by Elvish Scientist »

6MP instead of 5 is a huge advantage if you have 3MP per hex in a cave or on a mountain scenario. You do not want to use non-quick elvish fighters in such a situation.

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Faello
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Post by Faello »

Not really, in caves I was usually using a non-elven units - why to use elves in caves where they suck at all ? In HttT campaign I was trying not to summon elven units in cave scenarios - there are other, better units for such occasions.
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Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

For me it depends heaviliy on what unit type and what I was intending them to be used for.

I personaly like having quick dwarves especilay if backed by resiliance, strenght, or health.

I find that quick helps many units get into the fight and attack at good angles and that this ussualy makes up for the -10%. However If I have no need for the mobility or if my whole force is quick then that is when it is a handicap.

EDIT: Never recruit elves in caves but the thing applies anyway. Quick humans can move 3 hexes of caves, hills, forests, ect. or 2 hexes through water, mountains and such.
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TL
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Post by TL »

I don't mind quick+resilient units in MP, since they end up with roughly normal HP plus extra movement. Quick+intelligent units seriously suck, though, since it's so extremely unlikely they'll survive long enough to level.

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Post by theotherhiveking »

The only solution I see without changing all, is give fast units extra dodging around 5%, and intelligent units a bit more resistances.

so a fast + intelligent unit would have 5% dodging and 5% defense + 1 movement extra. The unit would still die fast but when convined with other traits you get at least a decent unit.
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Lorbi
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Post by Lorbi »

If it really is more a malus than a bonus i see a problem.
It's just not fair if i recruit a bunch of unit that ( randomly ) get all a malus and my opponent gets all units with bonuses. Either it is not fair or you can say: Many aspects in Wesnoth are about randomness, consider this as on more what i dont like much in this case.

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Post by turin »

If you look at it as all OTHER traits give a bonus to HP, and Quick doesn't, then there's no malus at all. It could be programmed that way too, but it's more efficient to do it this way...
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Lorbi
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Post by Lorbi »

intelligent gives no hp boost

and because i am not sure which of the ways you propose is the better i started this discussion

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Post by Rhuvaen »

Intelligent is the only trait that is a malus, since all it does is reduce something (the xp required) :P. (BTW, malus is not an English word, perhaps use "penalty"?)

Quick is one of the best traits to have - but like all traits its usefulness is dependant on unit type and the purpose you use it for.

Mobility is highly underrated by people who play mostly against the AI (campaigns) or who are new to competitive MP. Against the AI, you can simply position your units and wait for it to attack. Not so against human opponents. Being able to pull off a good attack combo depends on your mobility. Often quick units can get to good terrain positions before the enemy can - and that can decide your whole strategic situation. They can more easily cover flanks when things go wrong etc. All this is very general, but I can't understand why people regard mobility so lowly.

Like any other traits, there are units that make better use of the trait than others. Who wants strong archers? I find that loyalist (small)foot troops can often make good use of the quick trait. Trolls can reach mountains more easily - that'll make up for more than 10% of their hp. Quick Elvish Archers can almost double as scouts. That said I don't like quick Elvish Fighters much...

It's just like any other trait, in that it will change the usefulness of a unit significantly, only more so in the good and bad sense than for instance intelligent or resilient (which are on the other end of the scale, being useful for a much greater range of units).
Last edited by Rhuvaen on July 6th, 2007, 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

I find it annoying when I get all quick units, and I find it equally annoying when I get no quick units.
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Post by Velensk »

There is an english word that is pronounsed malas (not sure how it is spelled), meaning hatred or something simular, I don't think penelty is the word either for it implies a negetive effect of a cause. Maybe he's looking for the word menace (again not sure I spelled it correctly) refering to a person/thing who causes problems.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

"Malus" is a pseudo-word commonly used on the Wesnoth forums when an opposite of "bonus" is needed. Presumably it's based on the Latin origin of the word (where "bonus" means "good", and "malus" means "bad")
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