Dunefolk changes for 1.15.3

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Shiki
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Dunefolk changes for 1.15.3

Post by Shiki »

There's a few changes I have in mind about Dunefolk since I looked into translating the names to German these days.

1) The Level 4 unit of Dunefolk — I want to remove it:
Simply as is: there is no need for it. I don't see a reason why one of the three advancement lines of the Dune Soldier should be allowed to get that unit, while others don't. If at all, then because of the L4 being a leadership unit, which it isn't. The fact that this advancement is disabled by default tells already that we're not sure if it's a good idea, and since the disabling is a bit fishy already I prefer leaving it out fully. That also saves some time to animate the unit and to come up with a name for it. For backwards compatibility, there's also the advantage that the name (and id) of this L4 unit in 1.14 is the name of a new L3 unit in 1.15, and this new L3 unit is also a leader unit, so it would lore wise fulfil a similar position (a chief unit). And things like the Era of Legends add-on (that's like Age of Heroes, L4 leaders + L3 recruits), it can handle this different by giving the Dunefolk side another bonus via a prestart event (like an additional loyal+slow unit for free).

I think some L4 units like the Lich exist because we need sometimes imbalanced ultra units, but the Dunefolk is not a case for this.

2) Swapping name of Dune Explorer (L2) and Dune Wayfarer(L3, in 1.14 called Dune Ranger)

The English version of Wesnoth has some pattern with names.
Fighters are Lvl 1 units. Examples: Elvish Fighter, Drake Fighter, Dwarvish Fighter, Mermen Fighter, Naga fighter
Warriors are Lvl 2 units. Examples: Mermen Warrior, Naga Warrior, Orcish Warrior, Drake Warrior. Except the Troll Warrior is L3, and the Royal Warrior too, albeit the latter one is not a normal unit.
As the Dwarvish Explorer is Lvl 3, it makes sense for the Dune Explorer to be Lvl 3 too.
It's no necessary to follow this scheme, but I guess it's nice.

3) Removing some side units. (non-dunefolk ones, but related to them)
I'd also consider to clean up and remove some units which got not much use nor animations.
- Wild Wyvern and Wyvern Rider (added in 1.15): They are neat, but I think in the Wesnoth universe we have already drakes. It would be nicer if drakes fill their role instead — for better integrating both Drakes and Dunefolk into the lore. Also, that saves to add animations for these units and they have oversized sprites. Another reason I heard was that they were a candidate for the Dunefolk faction, but that spot was ultimately filled by the Nagini.
- The Roc. It's like another Gryphon. And looks more like an ordinary big bird, rather than what I find in Wikipedia. From mythology, it would be a candidate for a L4 or even L5 unit. Little anecdote: Most I found was related to the Roc in Sindbad's fairytale, talking about "The Roc". Due to that I never found out how to write the plural form in German. In English it's straightforward. The normal way how to make the plural form in German is something else.
- The Jinn (also added in 1.15) I can imagine to leave in. (no strong reasons though)
- The Falcons (the ones in 1.14). They have been thrown out of Dunefolk, with other units being added instead, namely Nagini. Removing them also leaves us with one less 1-line-race, which is nice. (Also nice that the Nagini are not a 1-line race anymore by taking their place). They could be used independently of the Dunefolk, but at least in mainline they aren't. Usually we don't remove units which were already in core, but as this is done in case of the Dunefolk, I want to use the opportunity to remove them too.

All these units have no animations or portraits, not adding/removing them saves us work. I think it's better to not leave them in for the reason somebody may find them useful — in that case they can still be added by UMC. Wensoth has already more than 200 units, the bar to add more should be high. Units/races should be integrated good in the game, just having many is contrary to adding depth – quality and lore wise.

shevegen
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Re: Dunefolk changes for 1.15.3

Post by shevegen »

I don't care about 1) enough to comment on either way so I have no opinion.

As for 2) The name "Dune Explorer" is a bit weird. I think Ranger is also a bit strange to associate it with dune/sand. But I do not care enough to really mind either way. I do not completely agree with the same-level-features, though. Part of the uniqueness of units comes through additional specializations in the level. I do not remember offhand but I think the level 4 spear guy was best, if I remember correctly. The shield guy was ok too; I loved the fire dune thingy... was it some missile dude (my memory is sooooooo bad).

3) Wyvern Rider: now as you mention it... are you the author who wrote that campaign where one can buy wyverns too? If so then that is one of my top 5 campaigns. Or perhaps you are some other author ... hard to know. That campaign is my second favourite; the only better one was the one with arabian nights e. g. the campaign with summon circles and djinnis. But that with the wyverns for hire was very good too.

If I understand you correctly, you primarily try to integrate this all more into mainstream wesnoth, which is fine. Personally I prefer the more wild add-ons though. ;) For newcomers, though, consistency and simplicity is probably more important.

I'd keep the wyverns though, keep something drake-related. Wyverns tend to be leaner and thinner. Might fit into a hot sand area too; fat full dragons just end up losing too much water during heat!

The Roc makes no real sense so remove it... but reconsider the wyverns. I think dune riders on wyverns make sense.

As for falcons ... now I almost think you are that author of that campaign!

I like the falcon, great for fast exploration. I did, however had, also suggest more animals in general, even upgrades to regular units or heroes, e. g. buy some dog or falcon and add some benefits to it (e. g. far see +2 hexagons or something like that). I'd definitely retain the idea of falcon companions. Perhaps add it like a skill or so to a unit. As a standalone unit, though, other than exploring stuff, the falcon is a bit pointless indeed, so I guess it is no big deal if it is removed.

> Wensoth has already more than 200 units, the bar to add more should be high. Units/races should be integrated good in the game, just having many
> is contrary to adding depth – quality and lore wise.

Well, if you refer to keeping the whole storyline logical and consistent, then I agree. But personally I much prefer a wilder storyline that can focus on the story itself, rather than have to be restricted by other, older stories. But I am also up for extending the main storyline! Like adding the adventures of Grog the troll or whatever was the name. People could like play the main campaign, and then have follow-up quests based on that.

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Celtic_Minstrel
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Re: Dunefolk changes for 1.15.3

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Please don't remove any of these units. The side units (except the falcon) have not much use because they're brand-new flavour units. There's no point removing them on the grounds of insufficient use when they haven't even been given a chance to get some use.
Shiki wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 8:33 pm
1) The Level 4 unit of Dunefolk — I want to remove it:
Simply as is: there is no need for it. I don't see a reason why one of the three advancement lines of the Dune Soldier should be allowed to get that unit, while others don't. If at all, then because of the L4 being a leadership unit, which it isn't. The fact that this advancement is disabled by default tells already that we're not sure if it's a good idea, and since the disabling is a bit fishy already I prefer leaving it out fully. That also saves some time to animate the unit and to come up with a name for it. For backwards compatibility, there's also the advantage that the name (and id) of this L4 unit in 1.14 is the name of a new L3 unit in 1.15, and this new L3 unit is also a leader unit, so it would lore wise fulfil a similar position (a chief unit). And things like the Era of Legends add-on (that's like Age of Heroes, L4 leaders + L3 recruits), it can handle this different by giving the Dunefolk side another bonus via a prestart event (like an additional loyal+slow unit for free).
It's an optional unit for important characters in campaigns, much like the Royal Guard for example. There's plenty of other examples of similar advancements that are disabled by default but made available for campaign use.
Shiki wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 8:33 pm
I think some L4 units like the Lich exist because we need sometimes imbalanced ultra units, but the Dunefolk is not a case for this.
I don't think that's really the reason for the Ancient Lich…
Shiki wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 8:33 pm
2) Swapping name of Dune Explorer (L2) and Dune Wayfarer(L3, in 1.14 called Dune Ranger)

The English version of Wesnoth has some pattern with names.
Fighters are Lvl 1 units. Examples: Elvish Fighter, Drake Fighter, Dwarvish Fighter, Mermen Fighter, Naga fighter
Warriors are Lvl 2 units. Examples: Mermen Warrior, Naga Warrior, Orcish Warrior, Drake Warrior. Except the Troll Warrior is L3, and the Royal Warrior too, albeit the latter one is not a normal unit.
As the Dwarvish Explorer is Lvl 3, it makes sense for the Dune Explorer to be Lvl 3 too.
It's no necessary to follow this scheme, but I guess it's nice.
No strong opinion here, but the rationale does strike me as a bit weak.
Shiki wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 8:33 pm
- Wild Wyvern and Wyvern Rider (added in 1.15): They are neat, but I think in the Wesnoth universe we have already drakes. It would be nicer if drakes fill their role instead — for better integrating both Drakes and Dunefolk into the lore. Also, that saves to add animations for these units and they have oversized sprites. Another reason I heard was that they were a candidate for the Dunefolk faction, but that spot was ultimately filled by the Nagini.
- The Roc. It's like another Gryphon. And looks more like an ordinary big bird, rather than what I find in Wikipedia. From mythology, it would be a candidate for a L4 or even L5 unit. Little anecdote: Most I found was related to the Roc in Sindbad's fairytale, talking about "The Roc". Due to that I never found out how to write the plural form in German. In English it's straightforward. The normal way how to make the plural form in German is something else
- The Jinn (also added in 1.15) I can imagine to leave in. (no strong reasons though)
- The Falcons (the ones in 1.14). They have been thrown out of Dunefolk, with other units being added instead, namely Nagini. Removing them also leaves us with one less 1-line-race, which is nice. (Also nice that the Nagini are not a 1-line race anymore by taking their place). They could be used independently of the Dunefolk, but at least in mainline they aren't. Usually we don't remove units which were already in core, but as this is done in case of the Dunefolk, I want to use the opportunity to remove them too.
Other than the Jinn, these are part of the flavour of "dunefolk as tamers". The falcons in particular are explicitly mentioned in the flavour text of at least one unit, and while the wyvern riders aren't part of the MP faction, they are intended to be a significant part of dunefolk culture. You have a point about the roc, though - while I do want to keep it, perhaps its current form is not compelling enough. Still, I'd rather see it revised than removed. As for the jinn, they're intended as a fae-like presence in the more remote reaches of the desert, so they too have an influence on the dunefolk culture.
Shiki wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 8:33 pm
Units/races should be integrated good in the game, just having many is contrary to adding depth – quality and lore wise.
Lore-wise, these are already integrated in. Of course, they would still need to be used in various scenarios even in mainline, but we can get to that.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

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doofus-01
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Re: Dunefolk changes for 1.15.3

Post by doofus-01 »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
February 26th, 2020, 2:35 am
Please don't remove any of these units. The side units (except the falcon) have not much use because they're brand-new flavour units. There's no point removing them on the grounds of insufficient use when they haven't even been given a chance to get some use.
Shiki wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 8:33 pm
1) The Level 4 unit of Dunefolk — I want to remove it:
Simply as is: there is no need for it. I don't see a reason why one of the three advancement lines of the Dune Soldier should be allowed to get that unit, while others don't. If at all, then because of the L4 being a leadership unit, which it isn't. The fact that this advancement is disabled by default tells already that we're not sure if it's a good idea, and since the disabling is a bit fishy already I prefer leaving it out fully. That also saves some time to animate the unit and to come up with a name for it. For backwards compatibility, there's also the advantage that the name (and id) of this L4 unit in 1.14 is the name of a new L3 unit in 1.15, and this new L3 unit is also a leader unit, so it would lore wise fulfil a similar position (a chief unit). And things like the Era of Legends add-on (that's like Age of Heroes, L4 leaders + L3 recruits), it can handle this different by giving the Dunefolk side another bonus via a prestart event (like an additional loyal+slow unit for free).
It's an optional unit for important characters in campaigns, much like the Royal Guard for example. There's plenty of other examples of similar advancements that are disabled by default but made available for campaign use.
I don't like https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/comm ... 7b2b76d847
As Celtic_Minstrel says, it is good as an optional unit available for campaigns and UMC. I think that commit should be reverted.
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Celtic_Minstrel
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Re: Dunefolk changes for 1.15.3

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

doofus-01 wrote:
February 29th, 2020, 1:19 pm
I think that commit should be reverted.
I didn't realize that one of these removals was already pushed… yeah, I think it should be reverted.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
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Hejnewar
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Re: Dunefolk changes for 1.15.3

Post by Hejnewar »

From what I know this was unintentionaly pushed too early. So yea it should be.

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ghype
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Re: Dunefolk changes for 1.15.3

Post by ghype »

They will most likely become campaign units once Dunefolk gets one.

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Pentarctagon
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Re: Dunefolk changes for 1.15.3

Post by Pentarctagon »

That was reverted, for the record.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
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