[Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

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Crendgrim
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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by Crendgrim »

Kranix:
This whole thread isn't about berserk, but about changing the "marksman" ability. Besides, you quoted Velensk, not Scatha. I really do not see the point of your post?


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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by Kranix »

Crendgrim wrote:Kranix:
This whole thread isn't about berserk, but about changing the "marksman" ability. Besides, you quoted Velensk, not Scatha. I really do not see the point of your post?


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Yes, I quoted the wrong person. Meant to point out the thing about certain kills, which Scatha mentioned. Will fix it now.

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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by Insinuator »

Glenn wrote:Honestly though, i think that it may be a good change to make the orcish assassin actually ABLE to fail. Having an 87.5% chance compared to a... what was it? 97.5% chance to poison something doesn't really make much of a difference (think: shooting at units sitting in water), and it also reduces the frustration of a next-to garuantee that at least one of your units is going to get poisoned every time an assassin pops up. I honestly don't think that it's really an issue fighting dwarves, because there are so few mountain hexes on most maps anyway, and you still have a ridiculous cth.
I'm not sure where you pulled those figures, but they seem erroneous to me. Under the current implementation of Marksman, a unit with 70% defence would have a 93.5% chance of being poisoned. With Scatha's proposed change, that drops to 78.4% chance! That is a large difference and I have often seen units miss three times with those odds. Additionally, it IS a big deal fighting Dwarves because they are trying to use those few mountain tiles to maximum effect. This change would make them even harder to drive from defensive positions.

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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by Pentarctagon »

Kranix wrote:Yes, I quoted the wrong person. Meant to point out the thing about certain kills, which Scatha mentioned. Will fix it now.
I think you are missing the point. Sure, if you want to go by the strict dictionary definition, then a ulfserker/berserker attacking a DA is not a 'certain' kill. However, the chances of the DA surviving even on the best of terrain are so miniscule that it might as well be.
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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by Skrim »

I would oppose this change as a replacement of the existing Marksman ability.

The present Marksman is extremely useful in its role - by reducing 60% and 70% defenses to just 40%, Elvish Marksmen (and Sharpshooters) are excellent at striking entrenched units and cutting down elusive types. The new Marksman ability would make elusive types a lot more resilient to these units, and that I don't like. I'm not particularly bothered about getting a slightly higher hit rate on horses and drakes so much as I am about the ability to destroy dodgers.
It would be a massive nerf, IMO.

On top of that there is the Assassin and Glider getting nerfed - the Assassin's case has been covered by others, the Glider would not be bothered a whole lot (its damage is pretty low as such, and the main target of its marksmanship - ghosts, would still get the same effect).

I am OK if you were to make this a new ability for use by, say, the Arif, which isn't a ranged unit and thus is kind of strange to possess a 'marksmanship' ability. Then it would need to be called something different, though.

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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by em3 »

Skrim wrote:I am OK if you were to make this a new ability for use by, say, the Arif, which isn't a ranged unit and thus is kind of strange to possess a 'marksmanship' ability. Then it would need to be called something different, though.
There are already Marksman melee attacks in UMCs, for example Vampire Blade Dancer in Era of Myths. However goofy it sounds.

When I originally supported this idea I didn't really consider the impact it will have on sniping high defense targets. For some factions the Marksman ability is currently the only way for doing this (Magical being a rare alternative)...
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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by quantumfleet »

I think that this is a very interesting idea, even if it needs playtesting to make sure that it doesn't effect the balancing too much -- as is, marksman is just a weaker version of magical. But I was also thinking: why replace Marksman entirely? I mean, there are very strong arguments that the assassin would be made much weaker, and some UMC's might make use of the existing marksman. I had this idea that the suggested change could be implemented, and the existing marksman would enter as a new ability with a name to the effect of "sureshot" or "deliberate attacking." This would have the dual benefit of allowing a failsafe it the balancing of current units is ruined, and adds more flexibility for UMC.
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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by Dixie »

Sorry, but I don't really understand your point... In any event, if it's "we should add this to the core code to ease the life of UMC coders", it's not really a good point, because making such a special for a UMC would likely be very simple and could take less than 10 lines...
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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by quantumfleet »

What I meant is to implement the suggested change, and create a new ability identical to "old" marksman, as a failsafe of sorts if the change ruins the balancing.
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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by alluton »

Yeah there is some change to DA will survive from dwarvish berserker but that is minimal anyway. Also this replacement sounds good and not just being "shadow of magic" Also affects on gameplay shoudent be big. And if there is heave infrantry crossing river and good experienced marksman can surpise attack it why it woudent be 100% change? HI is close and in shallow water it is so slow that it cant even try to evade attack. So marksman hitting big man-sized target which almost stands still. Change is pretty much 100% (atleast if unit got marksman ability when it is skilled whit it's weapon)
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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by Practice »

I think its a nerf for marksman units. But, maybe better would be to add +10% chance to hit, no matter if unit is attacking or defending? What you think?

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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by Dixie »

I kinda like the current marksman. While usually sligthly less reliable than magical, it has the nice perk of not totally ignoring unit defense: if the unit defense was lower than the marksman bonus (HI in water, for exemple), it would pick the defense (in the previous example, 90%), while magical would still be capped at 70%.

Also, if an ability was to be made to replace Marksman, I think it'd make more sense for it to only be available on offense. While it is a bit less kick-ass/reliable, it is more logical: a marksman unit has to aim (i.e. be on the offense), while a magic spell will always be a magic spell (i.e. being 70% fizzle proof).
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Re: [Mainline] Replace the 'Marksman' weapon special

Post by Shinobody »

I'm against. Why? I played some tactical (squad based) games like Jagged Alliance, and there was one big problem with them. Snipers were too universal. It made sense for whole team to be made of snipers (plus maybe medic or two). Here, effect would be similar. Now, using marksmans on lightly covered enemies is unnecessary overkill and waste of manpower. You'd rather move them to shoot at some elusive scouts or units defending in a village - which is more real-life. And more fun. While general +10% makes them all-purpose unit, rather than specialists.
Most importantly, this is completely different ability. It works different. It would have nothing to do with "Old Marksman"except for the name and the fact that it affects CTH.
My idea? Make the code, add to Wiki (so everyone can get it when needed in UMC), under the name "Accurate" (This attack is always 10% more accurate). Because this is not Marksman.
EDIT: Edited since it was too off-topic and hard to understand. Hopefully now it is little better.

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