Scenario Review: NR 4 - Clearing the Mines

[podbelski]

1.11.15, medium difficulty

I had almost 1000gp, but after watching Maiklas' replay lost all the interest... somehow it makes me bored - a ton of money and a ton of enemies. Btw I seriously think this 80% gold transfer between scenarios hurts the balance of the game. Make it 40%, and reduce AI gold accordingly

so I'm leaving this campaign, going for Son of the Black Eye which I know is great

[Turuk]

1.11.15, medium difficulty

I had almost 1000gp, but after watching Maiklas' replay lost all the interest... somehow it makes me bored - a ton of money and a ton of enemies. Btw I seriously think this 80% gold transfer between scenarios hurts the balance of the game. Make it 40%, and reduce AI gold accordingly

so I'm leaving this campaign, going for Son of the Black Eye which I know is great

Sad to hear that it burned you out podbelski, though you are certainly not the first that's been bored by the massive battles and tedious turns waiting for AI moves. I have just started working to revamp NR to change that flaw, so in the future the campaign should have a different feel that will hopefully draw you back.

[podbelski]

I'm sure the NR has a good potential, and I'm looking forward to play the redesigned version in the future

[dabber]

Hey, don't go changing Northern Rebirth to remove the massive battles! The huge battles are what make the campaign interesting. Yes, there are people that don't like them (which I understand - I still haven't finished the final battle), but no other campaign offers what current NR does.

[Turuk]

Hey, don't go changing Northern Rebirth to remove the massive battles! The huge battles are what make the campaign interesting. Yes, there are people that don't like them (which I understand - I still haven't finished the final battle), but no other campaign offers what current NR does.

It won't completely remove a few larger battles, but it will make the campaign more interesting than who can invest the most time in watching their elite army slaughter it's way through a horde. Some of this will be done through reduced battle size, some through reworking to require greater tactical challenges of the player beyond recalling all their units.

[shadow12]

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Challenging, 1.0.4
Finished turn 41/75 with 1220 gold
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) 7.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives? "Clear the mines" means "Defeat all enemy leaders."

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario? The story about Tallin is interesting. Malifor attempted to swing Tallin over to the dark side.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
In-game surprise:

Spoiler:

The ghouls and nechrophages on turn 21! I noticed the river turn into marshes, but I didn't see that one coming. At first I felt overwhelmed. But after fighting a little and making progress, things started to turn around.

Thankfully, Tallin was in the NW castle by then so he could recruit near the marshes, and there were a lot of villages close.

I had another team in the west not doing so well, turning green with poison (not envy). They retreated south to find villages, but eventually joined the fighting again.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10. I enjoyed everything about it! I believe this scenario is designed to level up troops. I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy defeating the ghouls.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Good as is!

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario? Nope.

Edit: for the record, I like big fights, too.

[BillytheBabyGoat]

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

1. Nightmare.

2. 10

3. Crystal.

4. Interesting enough.

5. Staying within the turn limit, dealing with the leveled ghasts, taking down Malifor without getting slaughtered (He can wipe out full health Archmage very easily), not going completely negative on gold.

6. 10

7. None; the challenge was very high, but with the breather scenario right before it was manageable. Took heavy casualties but made it out with multiple dwarven lords and with loyal units alive and max leveled (Zlex became a Royal Guard) so worked out well enough.

8. Many. Had to restart the first time the necrophage swarm showed up when they killed... everyone, then several more times trying to take out Malifor. He refused to leave his castle without some good bait, so I let him hit an "alone" steelclad, then swarmed him. Had to reload twice on him from trying to use max level full HP Cameron to take him out and being killed by retaliation before I switched to using the steelclad, which miraculously did not die.

[Thrash]

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.12.6, Normal with more gold than I can spend. (And I've got 4000+ for the next scenario.)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

3 due to leaders rushing out.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Good.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Killing the lich without losing important units.

I finished before the ghouls arrived. That would have been a nasty surprise as I was in no bad position to deal with them. Not sure if I would have survived. Seems fairly insane frankly.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

3, the basic undead, underground slog. The wide open terrain is somewhat interesting.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Maybe have some ghouls appear randomly sooner to both spice up the early rounds and give the player some warning.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.

[Konrad2]

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.14.1, Nightmare

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

4-6 due to grinding through the skeletons

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Good.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Killing the lich without losing important units. (Being somewhat warned of the ghouls helps.)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7, I liked the terrain. My perceptions might be skewed because I like the changes.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

-

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Stupid decisions like not protecting leaders.

[MrTic]

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Easy.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear as day.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear except the Lich proposing you to join him was unexpected and weird.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The Ghouls/Necrophages of course.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Reduce the number of enemies, including Necrophages, on the easiest difficulty.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Nope. But that's only because I've read about the swamp spawns beforehand so I could prepare accordingly.

Btw, Woodmen are good in swamps (50% def.rating) and they serve as nice fodder - there aren't enough villages around to heal the poisoned units all the time.

[LordWolfDan]

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

- 1.14.5, Challenging

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

- 9

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

- Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

- Nice. Now that I fight undead, I don't think Malifor's the main villain of the campaign, but having to fight him for the good is welcome. Also, does anyone else notice "Hobbit" Easter Egg?! One of draugs named Thorin?!

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

- Lots and lots of undead that is

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

- 6

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

- I can't think of any

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

- No

[Tom_Of_Wesnoth]

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

Normal, 1.15.2.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

6 without the ghoul surprise, 8 with.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Crystal clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Ehhh. There's a lich living here, kill him. It's okay, just dull.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

The bottlenecks at the start. I rushed as far forward as I could early on to try to avoid the worst of it, but it still devolved into a bloody slog through tiny spaces for a long time. Once I broke through, though, it was plain sailing until...

The surprise when twenty ghouls spawn in out of nowhere! Like... Mate. No.

I was advancing through that area at the time, and my lines got completely blindsided by the ghouls out of nowhere. Without any healers, and barely any nearby villages, the ghouls took a while to effectively clear out, and I had to spend several turns healing after that.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

4. The plot is basic. The gameplay is mostly just fighting through a brutal bottleneck that takes a long time to make any progress through, and a nasty tomato surprise after that.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

The bottleneck is part of this scenario's identity, so I won't say to remove that. The tomato surprise with the ghouls could use some foreshadowing a few turns in advance, and a couple of extra villages near there would make healing up after beating them go by faster.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.

[devavrata]

Will write full feedback later. For now, I just want to register that I deeply disagree with the walkthrough: "Dwarfs are probably the best units in your army, *especially* against skeletons". Are you kidding me?
-Skeletons have 60% bonus against piercing and cold attacks - forget about Thunderers.
-Skeletons have 40% bonus against blade attacks - forget about Scouts as well.
-Skeletons have -20% bonus against impact attacks - alright, Fighters come in handy.
So, you can recruit only three types of dwarves, and the only ones worth recruiting against skeletons are the Fighters.

But wait, don't you have better options? Of course you do. Maybe in other campaign you would have no alternative but to recruit Fighters - say, some alliance of dwarves with elves, where most elves have only piercing and blade attacks. But in this campaign, you get Footpads and Thugs. They are quicker than Dwarves, they get better defense bonus, and Footpads get a ranged impact attack too!

No, my dear, dwarves are not the best units against skeletons - Tallin's men are.

[Konrad2]

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.15.7, Royal Guard (Nightmare)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

8.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear. Defeat the undead horde.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Okayish.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

None so far, might update when I try to beat it for real.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

5

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

-

Scenario stats:
First attempt:

Spoiler:

Second attempt:

Spoiler:

Success:

Spoiler:

[devavrata]

We need to make to make some things clear as of this point.

On my part, I need to make it clear that I find this campaign difficult.

On your part, you need me to mention the alternate campaign. What alternate campaign? Well, that's precisely the reason why you need me to mention it - most of you don't know about it, for there is not a single mention to it in the walkthrough or the gameplay feedback forums. The only mention I have been able to find is in a post from 2010 in the development forum: viewtopic.php?t=32239 . However, the alternate campaign happened to be a part the Nortern Rebirth campaign. It deserves to be mentioned, so it's time to mention it for the first time in the gameplay feedback forum.

Northern Rebirth is the most difficult mainline campaign

When did I start playing Battle for Wesnoth? I don't recall the exact moment, but it seems that it was with version 1.8.3, so in July or August, 2010 - that means that at present I have been playing it for fourteen years. Thanks a lot to all the people who provide players like me with so much good enjoyment.

How do I play Battle for Wesnoth? First I play all of the campaigns in the easiest difficulty, then all of them the second easiest, then the ones that have a third difficulty.

Which order I follow for the campaigns? First the novice level, then rookie, then intermediate, then expert.

Which order for campaigns of the same level? From the least number of scenarios to the most. So, I begin by the campaign of novice level with only 4 scenarios A Tale of Two Brothers played in beginner difficulty and end with the campaign of hard level with 20 scenarios The Rise of Wesnoth in the greatest difficulty - but I haven't got to the end yet.

I write feedback for a scenario only after playing it in all of the possible difficulties - it wouldn't make sense to me to provide feedback for a scenario otherwise.

It took me about one year to play all of the mainline campaigns in the easiest difficulty. Then, I began playing them in the second easiest difficulty, beginning as I said before with A Tale Of Two Brothers. This campaign was (and still is) the only mainline campaign to have only two difficulties, so by 2011 I could already had written feedback for it - but as of then I hadn't thought yet of providing feedback (recently, I replayed this short campaign just to write feedback for it so it wouldn't be left out). It took me another year to play all of the mainline campaigns in the second easiest difficulty.

You see where this is going - one year to play all of the campaigns in easiest difficulty, another year to play them in the second easiest difficulty... and twelve more years and I still haven't finished playing the campaigns in the third easiest (so, hardest) difficulty. What takes me so long? Some delays are of technical nature (my computer breaking down and having to use a borrowed computer for months until I get a new one). Some are caused by changes in the mainline campaigns (An Orcish Incursion being taken out, Dead Water and Secrets Of The Ancients being put in so I would have to play them in the easiest difficulties before playing them in the hardest difficulty and writing feedback). Some are caused by changes in the difficulties (Northern Rebirth and The Rise Of Wesnoth eliminating their easiest difficulty and adding another difficulty on top of the previously hardest one, so I would have to play them another time). But most delays are caused by difficulty - difficulty cause delays by having the player to use more days to beat a scenario, but first and foremost difficulty makes the player disengage from the game and stay away for long periods.

In September, 2012, I play my first campaign in the third and last difficulty, Heir to the throne, and I start writing feedback for the scenarios, so from there there is a trace of the periods that I stayed away from the game.
a) 11-month leave after finishing The Hammer Of Thusargan.
b) 3-month leave after finishing The Easter Invasion.
c) 2-month leave after finishing Legend Of Wesmere.
d) 18-months leave after scenario 11 of Delfador's Memoirs.
e) 2-month leave after scenario 17 of Delfador's Memoirs.
f) 3-month leave after scenario 18 of Delfador's Memoirs.
g) 5-month leave after finishing DeadWater.
h) 2-month leave after finishing The Sceptre Of Fire.
i) 2-month leave after scenario 6.2 of Under The Burning Suns.
j) 7-month leave after finishing Under The Burning Suns.
k) 47-month leave after scenario 4 of Northern Rebirth... in what at present happens to be the second easiest difficulty!

Yes, Northern Rebirth has caused my longest disengage from Battle for Wesnoth. Let me tell you, after playing all of the campaigns in the two easier difficulties and most campaigns in all of the difficulties, I have no doubt that Northern Rebirth is the hardest campaign. Not only because of starting small, with 0-level units, but because the amount of enemy units you encounter in every scenario, and their high level, is overwhelming. But there is an additional cause for my long disengage: the undocumented alternate campaign.

Northern Rebirth undocumented alternate campaign

In Battle for Wesnoth 1.8.3, Northern Rebirth had three difficulties, I think the name was: Easy, Challenging, Hard. At present Easy is eliminated and a new, hardest difficulty added, so it is: Challenging, Hard, Nightmare. In October, 2020, I had already played the campaign in Easy and Challenging difficulty and was playing it in Hard with the current version at the moment of Battle for Wesnoth. At scenario 4, Clearing the Mines (the scenario for this thread), a scripted event happened: an enemy came close to Tallin, then I was given a strange chance:
-Cautious (Stay away).
-Brave (Inspire troops by killing abomination).

I soon find out that the first choice would keep Tallin alive, and the second one would have him die. But there was more to it: Tallin would become an undead. Wait, what? The human protagonist of the campaign becoming an undead?

Now, this situation must have happened not only in the version of Battle for Wesnoth current for 2020, but also in the previous years too. Was it there in 2011 and 2012, when I played the Northern Rebirth campaign in the Easy and Challenging difficulty? Possibly so - the development thread I found talking about it was from 2010. Was it there already, and did I not notice? I think most likely for the situation to be already there, but then I either made the right choice and kept Tallin alive, or chose wrong, saw Tallin becoming an undead, and chose to replay the scenario rather than to continue with an undead protagonist.

Anyway, in 2020 I was curious enough to wonder how the story could possibly continue with an undead protagonist, and carried on. What I found was a whole new campaign with the protagonist leading an undead army and a difficulty as much hard as usual.
Scenario 5, instead of The Pursuit, was Hero is Dead.
Scenario 6, instead of Old Friend was Friendship above all.
Scenario 7, instead of Settling Disputes was Weight of Revenge.
Scenario 8, instead of Elvish Princess was Song of Blood.
Scenario 9, instead of Introductions was The sentence. At the end of this scenario, Tallin is given two choices
-Spare necromancers (Gain three loyal necromancers). This choice failed to provide the three loyal necromancers as promised.
-Kill necromancers (Ghouls recruitment). This choice allowed for ghoul recruitment as promised.
Scenario 10, instead of Stolen Gold was Eternal Enemy.
Scenario 11, instead of Eastern Flank was The Purpose.
Scenario 12, instead of Get the Gold was Return.

As I said, the difficulty was hard. I took me a lot of effort and time to push through all of these scenarios with no walkthrough. Not knowing the number of scenarios started bothering me. And then, scenario 12 was like a big showdown with an overwhelming number of enemies. I would need to replay that scenario a lot of times before finding a winning strategy. Closer to a job than to leisure. That was when I stopped playing.

Climbing a mount in bicycle provides both enjoyment and suffering. Playing a videogame with a hard difficulty is the same. In both cases, the experience is vastly improved by having a reference of how far victory is. It is so much better if you know how much effort you need rather that what it seems an unlimited amount.

At the current Battle for Wesnoth version, this alternate campaign is no longer available. I would like to try again, but it is no longer possible.

Aside from the discouraging difficulty from the Northern Rebirth alternate campaign that disengaged me from the campaign, I don't want to provide this feedback on this alternate campaign without stating the following:

Of all the mainline campaigns in Battle for Wesnoth, I found Northern Rebirth's alternate campaign to be the one best written. The writing of Tallin discovering his new existence as an undead was haunting. From there on, the campaign appeared to have no objective, but precisely that lack of an objective made it intriguing. What to do now? Tallin's exchanges with other characters were mesmerizing. When in the middle of a combat Tallin unexpectedly recited the poem 'Something weird is coming' (a poem, from all things!) I couldn't but to froze in awe.

There. It had to be written, and now it is.